Radio Atlantic
The Trump Administration Accidentally Texted Our Editor Their War Plans
Tue, 25 Mar 2025
The Atlantic’s editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, received a connection request on Signal from a “Michael Waltz,” which is the name of President Donald Trump’s national security adviser. Two days later, he was added to a group text with top administration officials created for the purpose of coordinating high-level national-security conversations about the Houthis in Yemen. (Read his story here.) We talk with Goldberg and Shane Harris, an Atlantic national-security reporter, about what it means that this absurd and admittedly relatable thing happened in such a high-stakes situation. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, including clear-eyed analysis, insight on breaking news, and fascinating explorations of our world. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/podsub. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: What happened on March 15th in Yemen?
On March 15th, the U.S. began a bombing campaign against Houthi groups in Yemen. A couple of hours before that, our editor-in-chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, sat in his car in a supermarket parking lot waiting to see if and when the attack would start. How he knew about this military campaign is a very weird story.
Not long ago, Jeff was added to a text chain of very important people in the administration. Presumably, he was added to it by accident. I know. It happens to the best of us. But there was the editor of The Atlantic monitoring the back and forth between Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Vice President J.D. Vance, and others, wondering, could this possibly be real?
Chapter 2: How did Jeffrey Goldberg get added to a high-level text chain?
In fact, Brian Hughes, the spokesman for the National Security Council, later confirmed that it was indeed all real. I'm Hannah Rosen. This is Radio Atlantic. And today we have on the show Editor-in-Chief Jeffrey Goldberg and staff writer Shane Harris, who covers national security, to explain what happened and what it might mean. Jeff, welcome to the show.
Hey, Hannah.
Hi, Shane.
Hi.
Chapter 3: What was Jeffrey's initial reaction to the Signal message?
Jeff, on Tuesday, March 11th, you get a signal message from a user identified as Michael Waltz, which is also the name of President Trump's national security advisor. Where are you when you get this message, and what are you thinking?
Weirdly and randomly, I was in Salzburg, Austria. And what I'm thinking is not much because in my line of work, that wouldn't be the craziest thing to happen.
Like it could be him. It could be someone pretending to be him.
You're not that fast. I am always cautious about people reaching out across social media or messaging apps. I don't assume that they're the person that the name suggests. But... I would have to say that I was glad also, and I was hoping that it was the actual Michael Waltz, because I'd like to be in regular contact with Michael Waltz for all the obvious journalistic reasons.
Right. So you're like, oh, maybe he has a scoop for me.
Yeah.
Okay, so then what happens next? You're going about your life, going about your business, and...
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Chapter 4: What made Jeffrey think the group chat might be a spoof?
And then I get added to a group, a signal group, you know, a text messaging chat group called Houthi PC Small Group. PC, I know from covering White House issues, you know, principals committee, basically the top leaders of cabinet departments generally associated with national security issues. And then a message from Mike Waltz talking about how he's putting together this PC Small Group group.
to talk about the Houthis because something's going to be happening over the next 72 hours. That's when I sort of think, I mean, honestly, the first thing I thought was I'm really being spoofed. Like somebody is, this is a hoax. This is a state or non-state actor, probably non-state actor looking to entrap, embarrass, whatever word you want to use, a journalist.
Right, so you're on alert. Like it's a little bit interesting, but also you're on alert.
As you know, I'm always on alert.
Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Yeah.
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Chapter 5: How did the conversation in the text chain evolve?
What am I going to tell you?
All right. So then so maybe it's a spoof. Maybe it's not. How does it start to get more real?
It gets real in the sense that if somebody is doing a spoof, it's a very, very accurate spoof. What happens is a number of cabinet level officials start reporting into this chain, giving the names of their deputies or contact people over the weekend when clearly something is going to happen in Yemen. in retrospect, clearly something's going to happen in Yemen. And that was that for that day.
It was the next day that they start engaging in a policy discussion, really in earnest. And it's, you know, explicated in the story that I wrote. But that's when I'm sort of thinking to myself, if this is a simulation or this is a fake, someone's going to a huge, huge lens to make it seem real because everybody in the chat sounds like the person who they're quote-unquote playing.
So I'm, you know, I don't say I'm 50-50. I'm still 60-70, you know, 70-30 this is a fakery because for the simple reason that this is nuts. I mean, obviously, why would I be involved in this?
I wouldn't even know what to think because, yeah, like, we include people on text chains who we shouldn't. Like, the mistake seems as implausible as the reality. Like, every version seems implausible.
We all make the mistake. This is why this is so relatable. We all... I'm thinking of Shane, and I'm writing to Hannah about Shane, an assignment, or how great Shane is. And I type in Shane into the recipient, intended recipient, because that's the name that's on my mind. I don't know what was going on in Mike Waltz's mind, who he was thinking of.
We're trying to figure that out, still trying to figure that out. But in any case, I was added to this group, and it's a misdirected email or text chain that... I shouldn't have been on. But the larger point, and obviously Shane can speak to this, the larger point is that why is this conversation happening out in the open?
Now, I know Signal is end-to-end encrypted, but it's a commercial texting service that anyone, not just people with security clearances in the federal government, can join.
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Chapter 6: What examples illustrate the authenticity of the chat?
Look, the White House has confirmed that this is an authentic chain, but we're still trying to figure out some aspects of it. I still don't know the identities of one or two people because they had their initials. So when we talk about them, I'm assuming that SM is Stephen Miller, but I'm not guaranteeing that to you. That's a good example of one person.
On the other hand, obviously, the one called Hegseth is Hegseth.
So you heard Vance disagree with the president, which almost never happens publicly. That's interesting.
I mean, to be fair to all vice presidents and president, it never happens in any administration where a vice president is going to go out and – I mean, of course, he didn't go out here. He thought he was – Actually, it's really – it's interesting because Vance is saying in the conversation, I don't think the president understands the ramifications of what he's doing.
He's saying that to people who work for the president. It's kind of a bold move. Yeah. To say Trump doesn't understand what's going on. Right. Now, if I'm just sort of – this is just – But if I'm Stephen Miller and I'm reading that and I'm the enforcer, I'm like, okay, thanks, J.D.
Right.
That'll be enough of that.
Right, right, right, right, right. So some of the things are like overheard across the bathroom stall. You don't hear them in public. Other things are like exactly as you expect.
Right, right, right. Other things are exactly as I expect. I mean, even later in the story when after the first successful strike on the Houthis in Yemen— And that's when you know this was real. Well, then I know it's real because I was told beforehand that it was going to happen in my phone, and then two hours later it happens.
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Chapter 7: What concerns arise from discussing sensitive information on Signal?
I mean, what they do is talk about who we're going to bomb and why should we bomb them. They don't do it on signal. And the initial presentation of this that Jeff gave to me, I thought, well, this sounds crazy. Why would they be that reckless? Why would the National Security Advisor set up a group, call it, you know, P.C. Huthi Group, And then start adding these people.
And it was actually kind of baffling, too, because, again, if this was a hoax, somebody was going to really great lengths to do it, which could happen. I mean, you know, sophisticated operations do happen in the intelligence world. And the question was, of course, like, why? To what end? So where is this going?
And then as it went on, I think it became, like as Jeff said, increasingly clear that the needle was moving quickly towards authentic. But my initial reaction as to why it was probably not real was that I couldn't imagine – senior national security officials deciding that it was a good idea to discuss something of this sensitivity where, let's be clear, pilots are in the air.
They could be shot down. People could be killed. People are going to be killed on the ground. Things are happening very fast. Why would you not do that in the Situation Room? Or in a secure facility. Many of these cabinet officials, by the way, have facilities like that in their house. They can go have those conversations.
Most of the relevant ones, the heads of intelligence agencies, obviously defense secretary and the like, they have plenty of ways to communicate with each other within a minute or two of needing to.
Even those signals encrypted? Yes.
Yeah. So the problem is this. There's a couple of problems. One, it's encrypted, but it's never been approved by the government for sharing classified or what's called national defense information. Now, to be clear, we talked to former security officials, former U.S. officials who said, yeah, we did use Signal in the government.
We might use it to transmit sort of certainly unclassified, not sensitive information. We might talk around something or like notify someone that you're leaving a particular country. But this level of specificity, actual planning for an ongoing operation, the sharing of intelligence and information about strikes, that is clearly not what Signal's intended for.
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Chapter 8: How did Shane Harris perceive the legitimacy of the conversation?
It's very convenient and it is relatively safe. I mean, I know like some officials who've traveled overseas and – conflict zones who use it because they're not near a U.S. embassy, let's say. But it's not meant for this kind of detailed planning, which occurs, as, you know, Mr. Walt said, and the principal's committee level.
That is done in the Situation Room, or that's done at their various, you know, buildings where these people work.
Just so I'm clear, what level of detail crosses the line? I know you don't want to say what they actually said about the campaign, but what kinds of details when you saw them were like, that would never happen?
So details like the number of aircraft that are involved, the kinds of munitions that are being dropped. Times. Times.
That was on the chain?
Specific targets on the ground. Intelligence-related matters relating to the strike and to the targets. Names of individuals who should not – U.S. officials who should not have been put in an unclassified chain because of their status as intelligence officers.
There's probably six or seven different kinds of information that are arguably implicated under the rules and the law for how you're supposed to handle this stuff.
By the way, a lot of it is just common sense. I mean, you read something and you could tell the difference between strategic information and tactical information. We should deal with the Houthis. Fine. We should do X, Y, and Z because the Houthis are a threat to commerce and American national security interests. This is what we're going to do to the Houthis in two hours is not information that –
The public should have. I mean, even as a reporter, I say that. And, like, I'm fascinated. I want to know how they're making decisions, why they're making decisions. I want to know after action, why things happened, why they went right, why they went wrong, and so on. But I don't want – and I've been doing this for a while, as has Shane – I don't want information before –
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