Animals rescue people all the time, but not like this. In this episode, first aired more than a decade ago, Jim Eggers is a 44-year-old man who suffers from a problem that not only puts his life at risk—it jeopardizes the safety of everybody around him. But with the help of Sadie, his pet African Grey Parrot, Jim found an unlikely way to manage his anger. African Grey Parrot expert Irene Pepperberg helps us understand how this could work, and shares some insights from her work with a parrot named Alex.And one quick note from our producer Pat Walters: Jim considers Sadie to be a “service animal,” a designation under the Americans with Disabilities Act that protects the rights of individuals with disabilities to bring certain animals into public places. The term service animal sometimes is legally limited to include only dogs and miniature horses. Jim disagrees with those limitations, but the local bus company, regardless of definitions, said they’ll make an exception for Sadie.
Chapter 1: How can animals help with mental health?
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Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. So recently, you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health. There are all these therapist bots and just even people using regular chatbots to help them find solutions to their problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody even just to listen. And... I don't know.
I'm not sure what to think of any of it for a lot of different reasons, but partially because the AI doesn't know anything. It's just taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming, but it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean.
Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language back at us. And yet, I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to. All of that got me to thinking about a very different story that we made here at the show years ago. A story where, similarly, a person who needs help is helped by something. And it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping.
Okay.
All right. You're listening to Radiolab. from WNYC Rewind
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Chapter 2: What is Jim Eggers' story?
Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab, the podcast. And we're going to St. Louis. Yeah. Nice. Nice and direct. This comes from our producer, Pat Balters. It's the story of a rescue. A double rescue, really. It's one we've been wanting to tell for a while. Pat Balters.
So a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet...
is a bird it's about this guy named jim eggers oh you're recording yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna record and in 2005 jim was living by himself in a little apartment in st louis working in a halloween industry it was the winter so jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house i've known the halloween stuff for 19 years what do you do
Most of the time I've been in costumes and so forth or wear masks. You know, like jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people.
I can scream and, you know, go nuts. Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper. What's technically your diagnosis?
I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies. And what that pretty much is, is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot, I can become extremely dangerous and violent.
While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing start coming on,
It feels like real strange and tingly. Might just be a few seconds before all of a sudden, boom, here you are like the Incredible Hulk.
Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them?
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Chapter 3: What role does Sadie the parrot play in Jim's life?
Then I took her with me just everywhere.
He even got her registered as a service animal, kind of like a seeing-eye dog.
I mean, everywhere. Where would you go with her? I've taken her into churches. I've taken her aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym, yes. I've even taken her into a couple of casinos through here.
And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation. When Jim started feeling himself get mad, he'd tell himself, calm down. Sadie would repeat him. But then, one day, a few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry.
That's right after this break.
This is an ad by BetterHelp. You know, being a good guy, being, I guess, a man today, is sort of a never-ending act of recalibration. It is a wonderful, noble challenge, but a challenge nonetheless. We've got to be strong but vulnerable to be able to lead but also listen. We are told at times to protect but know that we should never control. I mean, it can be confusing.
So it's no wonder that 6 million men in the U.S. suffer from depression every year, often undiagnosed. And I guess I'm just here to say, well, talking to someone, it can help. I have had some wonderful therapists over the years. They have helped me in many ways to be less reactive, to be more aware, to be a better partner, a better friend.
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Chapter 4: How did Sadie help Jim manage his anger?
Chapter 5: What challenges did Jim face with his mental health?
And cats. Guinea pigs and stuff like that. His whole life. Never a bird. But when Jim read about these African gray parrots, he became kind of obsessed with getting one.
Because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun.
So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said, we can get you an African gray parrot. And she comes with the cage for $550. Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what I was going to pay. So he says, you know, I'll go ahead and take it. Because that was too good of a deal to pass up. There was a catch, though. The bird wasn't at the shop.
It was being sold by this local kid who was just trying to get rid of her.
I went over there, and she looked absolutely horrible because this kid didn't take care of her.
She was about a foot tall. You want some peanut butter? She had a black beak.
Pretty yellow eyes, too.
Piercing yellow eyes.
Bright red. And tail feathers. But when Jim first saw her, she didn't have any flight feathers in her left wing. Because she'd torn all of them out. Yeah, she was plucking her feathers. Which is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed. And, I mean, she looked horrible. I almost wanted to say no after I saw her. But he knew he couldn't just leave her there.
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of service animals?
Chapter 7: What insights does Irene Pepperberg provide about parrots?
Radio Lab is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today? Smart choice. Make another smart choice with AutoQuote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.
Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. So recently, you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health. There are all these therapist bots and just even people using regular chatbots to help them find solutions to their problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody even just to listen. And... I don't know.
I'm not sure what to think of any of it for a lot of different reasons, but partially because the AI doesn't know anything. It's just taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming, but it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean.
Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language back at us. And yet, I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to. All of that got me to thinking about a very different story that we made here at the show years ago. A story where, similarly, a person who needs help is helped by something. And it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping.
Okay.
All right. You're listening to Radiolab. from WNYC Rewind
Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab, the podcast. And we're going to St. Louis. Yeah. Nice. Nice and direct. This comes from our producer, Pat Balters. It's the story of a rescue. A double rescue, really. It's one we've been wanting to tell for a while. Pat Balters.
So a few months ago, I went to St. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet...
is a bird it's about this guy named jim eggers oh you're recording yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna record and in 2005 jim was living by himself in a little apartment in st louis working in a halloween industry it was the winter so jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house i've known the halloween stuff for 19 years what do you do
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Chapter 8: How did Sadie's behavior change over time?
But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of weird intuitive exchange happening or something?
Not really. But I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it.
Yeah.
So I called this woman who runs a coffee shop around the corner from his house, asked her if she'd seen it. She hadn't. Oh. Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something.
And?
Nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend, Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this, it would be Larry, because he's around them, like, all the time. He hadn't either. So I called Jim to ask if I was, like, missing anybody. He didn't answer, so I left a message. Left another message. Then finally... Hello? Hi, Jim. I got him on the phone. It's Pat again.
Yeah, go ahead.
It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you.
Well, she definitely has said those. But, I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me.
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