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Chapter 1: What insights does Jake White provide about the upcoming URC Grand Final?
Hello and welcome along to this week's RTE Rugby Podcast. It's URC grand final week. And as you can see, no studio for us this week. We've had to change up a few things and go fully remote just for this one week. But we do have a great guest to go alongside myself and Bernard this week. Former South Africa and Bulls head coach Jake White. Pleasure to have you on the podcast this week.
Thank you, Neil. Nice to join you and Bernard. I'm looking forward to chatting about the final.
Yeah, absolutely. And Bert, I suppose it's one of the beauties of the extra week of preparation between the semifinals and final.
Chapter 2: Why does Jake White consider Leinster the benchmark in the URC?
Normally, we only have one podcast. We've had two that we've been able to digest this week. And obviously, it gives us a chance to get the South African side, to get the Bulls view of this final.
Yeah, it's brilliant to get Jake on. I got to know Jake when he was in Montpellier and obviously has had an incredible amount of success and has been a big part of rebuilding this Bulls team who are now back in the final again and obviously went toe-to-toe with Leinster a few times as well.
So it's rare we get an insight of a coach of Jake's standing and particularly someone who knows Leinster very well and the Bulls.
Absolutely. And as I said, these two teams know each other very, very well over the last few years. It's probably up there, I'd say, the best non-interprovincial or inter-country rivalry we've seen over the few years of this URC, Jake.
Well, Neil, I mean, if you go back, it's five years now. And I mean, the Bulls have been in four finals. There's no doubt. I've said it many times. Leinster are the benchmark of many provincial sides. And you can list them. Toulouse, Leinster, always up there in the European Cup games. And they're always there in the European Cup playoffs.
So I've said it many times, I mean, sometimes to my detriment by saying that Leinster have been and are, you know, one of the clubs that, you know, it's like football.
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Chapter 3: What specific strategies do the Bulls need to employ to beat Leinster?
You want to be the Barcelona or you want to be the top clubs in the world. You don't want to be just another club. And Leinster over the years have been that. And, you know, some of the highlights of my coaching have been able to beat sides like Leinster in Leinster. I mean, that's a highlight for any coach, but also now tough it is.
And I know this week you guys are going to ask me about, you know, what's going to change or what could happen. Yeah, I mean, I repeat myself. Leinster are a quality team. A lot of those players have won and beaten All Blacks. A lot of those players have won and beaten the Springboks.
And when they're on song, funny enough, I was watching the last 30-odd rucks against the All Blacks in the quarterfinal. I mean, it was a really great rugby before Whitelock got that turnover. And I think that's why the Leinster faithful are so... They're waiting with bated breath for that kind of...
that kind of sequence to occur over and over and over because those players are good enough to do it.
It's obviously been a year since last year's final and you've stepped down from the Bulls since then. What have you been up to over the last year or so?
Look, I've just taken a bit of time off. I've been helping a couple of schoolboy sides, helping literally from under 11 A's with a mate of mine whose son plays there to a couple of first 15s. I've also had a bit of an accident. I had a hip replacement, which wasn't great.
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Chapter 4: How does Jake White view the evolution of trends in rugby?
I fell and had to have a hip replacement. wasn't great timing as in, you know, being taking time off and then getting injured. But who knows? Maybe it was, you know, meant to be. But also from a distance, been watching with, you know, with interest on how the game's evolving, how it's changing, watching the finals. I mean, I watched
Exeter-Bath game on the weekend with obviously, I mean, look how the game's changed. I mean, who would have thought Exeter would have beaten Bath? And then obviously, you know, the Bulls beating Glasgow, who beat us a couple of years in the final.
So, yeah, a lot of time and talking a lot to coaches like, you know, like Bernard and guys that are still in the game, Neil, and spending a bit of time also just helping referees. I think also just trying to find out, you know, from a refereeing point of view, just where the game's going. Because I think the referees have got a big role to play in the way the game's moving forward anyway.
Just like Jake, on that, where do you see the game at the moment? Where do you see the game going? Do you think it's in a good place?
Look, I've had this debate with a couple of coaches as well, Bernard, and we've debated it. I mean, I generally think that the team that defends is getting a lot of love. I know coaches are saying it's the other way around, but if you think about it, they took away scoring tries against the goalposts the other day. I mean, how many times have we scored tries against the goalposts?
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Chapter 5: What impact does the scrum have on the outcome of the final?
I mean, now taking three or four more a year away, that's just one stupid example. But if you think about it, you kick the ball out, you go into touch, I throw it in straight, I lift correctly, I set up a mall, and the first thing the ref says is, use it. It's basically his way of making sure I give the ball back to the opposition.
You knock the ball on, I get a scrum, I hold it at the eighth man's feet, he says, use it. Bottom line is, again, let's play. You're not allowed to have the ball, even though you guys have made the mistake. And then the last one is multi-phase. You can keep it for 10, 15 phases, and if it gets stuck in the middle of the rack, he goes, use it, use it. And you've got five seconds.
I remember in the final round, There was a big call made where one of the referees blew and gave a turnover. That's a 22-metre entry for not giving the ball back to the opposition. So I suppose what I'm saying to you is that everything in rugby is gone in cycles. You can have a look. When attack is, the Brumbies were their best. They could hold the ball for 30, 40, 50 phases.
Chapter 6: How do the recent performances of both teams influence their chances?
I'm using a ridiculous number. Get your hands on it. And Crusaders and those teams complained about how do we ever get it back? And they created the jackal and they created a gate through the ruck and all that sort of stuff. And then they allowed those teams to get turnovers.
And I think what I'm saying by that is the game will always go in ways of where there's an attack and then there's a defence and there's an element. I think at this point in time, it's the only ball sport in the world where you can win without the ball. And that balance has to be found. And I think it comes at an expense because if you have a 12-3 thriller,
It's not going to sell the crowds with 70,000 people. That's the dilemma that people that are running the game are in now. They want a 45-39 thriller with the last player of the game controlling the outcome. But I do think that the game will go, just the nature of the game, Bernard, it'll go into an attacking phase again.
The coaches are now working on how to attack even better and keep the ball where the ones that will be in the next curve will be ahead of the game.
i'm slightly i'm slightly going off our running order here but just to stay on on that point i'd be curious for both of you to answer actually what in terms of that rugby going in a cyclical nature and the the way the game flows what would you think could be the the next the next area of the game for a cunning mind a cunning coaching mind to to try and exploit what's the area of the game that teams aren't maybe looking as much at at the moment
Well, Bernard, I know you can go, but one thing that people ask me, so what would change the game significantly? And I think that if you could catch a kick, any kick out of the air, you could have a scrum from where the kick was kicked from. Because all that's happened now is people carry the ball outside the 22 and then they kick a contestable onto the kicker, I mean, onto the receiver.
Now, if you caught it out the air, you could take a scrum or a free kick from where you caught it. you would then be able to get an entry into their half just outside their 22. So teams would have to kick much more cleverly and along the ground. They wouldn't be allowed to kick in the air.
And that would stop all this barging and getting in the way and all these 50-50 penalties where you're running in front of people, etc., etc. The one thing that it would do for the junior game, it would create more scrums in the beginning because everyone would take the scrum just outside the 22.
And then youngsters and parents would say, listen, I don't really want my kid to play rugby because the scrum numbers have gone up. But I don't think it will last long. I think what will happen is teams will have to keep the ball out. And I think bringing back, you can kick it out in your 22.
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Chapter 7: What role does player experience play in the Bulls' preparation?
And that would mean, you know, more multi-skilled players in the backs, which probably means less 7-1 splits, Bernard, which also means, you know, no likelihood of an 8-0 split as well. So that's the kind of thing that the game would change. So a lot of good ball into place by making that one change.
I like the idea, Jake. I think the South African team will take the scrum, not just at junior level. I think the Irish team will take the free kick at the moment. Something I think we may see is I think defensive sides may be a little bit braver on goal line sets. For the last four or five years, more than 10 years, we've had a lot of influence of wrestling, jiu-jitsu,
in terms of trying to dominate collisions. But I think there's a definite area where teams can actually try and pull that player over the line and hold them up. So you saw at the end, it's so hard. I mean, the Bath-Exeter game, one of the reasons everyone's talking about it is obviously the non-drop goal or non-goal to wide.
But the reality is most attacking teams there, if you keep picking and going, you eventually will get the try or at least a penalty. And so it has become a bit of a stalemate. And so I think for defensive sides there, they may start to do some work on where they purposely look for those held up opportunities through manipulating the ball carrier or the latcher and really getting under.
It's a risk, obviously, if you get it wrong, it's a try. But I think it's very, very hard to survive there. Exeter obviously did survive, but... In general, teams get a penalty at some stage for people creeping up the ruck and then it's a free hit. It'll be down the road, but I'd imagine some defence coaches are looking at it.
The other thing, Bernard, when that's interesting, you said that about that, you know, that most penalties, that's why teams aren't taking them all anymore. That's why teams are taking the pick and grow because tendencies, referees are much stricter on defenders. That's the only time that defence is under the pump.
Yeah.
And I say more under the pump than any other. That's the one love that the attacking sides get. And you'll see just before halftime and just before the end of the game is when he's the most vigilant about those things. So, yeah. I mean, that's just a trend of all referees. So you spot on.
I do think, though, another thing that I've thought about, Bernard, is that if you kick the ball out over the halfway line for a penalty, then the line-out must go to the team that's in that half. You can't have your cake and eat it. So if you kick it out on the halfway line, you get the line-out. But if you decide to kick for touch into the corner, then it's the other team's ball.
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Chapter 8: What listener questions does Jake White address regarding his coaching philosophy?
Much better. I'll tell you why, Neil. It's just the nature of rugby teams. You're older. Everyone who was 24 is now 25. Everyone who's 26 is now 27. It's just the nature of that group. It's like anything. That's the debate, I suppose, Ireland and Leinster are having, is what is the age profile of teams that you want? I remember when I coached the box...
uh when i started we had 175 test caps in my very first test and we had 650 in my last test match at the world cup final now 650 in today's times is not enough test caps because people have got over a thousand test caps so it just shows you how you know that that philosophy of uh you know team cohesion and keeping people in positions especially nines and tens for a long period of time at value like the gregor and mortlocks or the carters and the
You know, and who's the scrum off then? I mean, jeez, I'm going blank. Who's the scrum off that played? I don't know, with Dan Carter? Justin Marshall. So the reality was, when you keep those positions together, and I've got no doubt, the Bulls now, last year we played without five of the players that will start this week, and five of those players are Kirtley, Oren, Serge, Gerrard, Steenkamp,
Andre Pollard, who would make the starting 23, you know, on any given test day. And then you've got Elric Lowe and Cameron Anacom, who we know how good they are and they have been. They mean they both beat the internationals. They didn't play last year. So are they better equipped, Neil? I've got no doubt they're better equipped. And because they're a year wiser, a year older.
and they've been there. I think that a lot of times when you've been to that, I'm not saying it's a right, because I think that's also one of the messages I've always said in my press conferences. I've seen lots of teams play European finals and never win it. I've seen lots of teams get to different finals and never win it. There's no right, in other words, given right to actually win a final.
You have to play well and As much as I say, are they better equipped? No doubt. But I also believe it's still, you know, take nothing away from Leinster and how good Leinster can be when they're on song.
Jake, you obviously played Leinster lots in Naka Rugby and have had some success against them. What would you, in your memory, what were the kind of key areas that you focused on, the two or three things that were non-negotiables for you if you wanted to be competitive against them?
Interesting thing, Bernard, is the one thing we didn't want to do is give them lineouts because we found that defending from their lineouts was very difficult.
And the reason was they got plays around the front, they got plays around the back, they got plays where they hold the ball for a couple of seconds in the mall and then they move it or they make two passes and they're literally in the 13 channel. You know, they got Gibson Park makes a massive pass to the midfield and then there's another one. you know, to the outside backs.
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