The Shawn Ryan Show
#260 Dale Hanson - Why MACV-SOG Had an 85% Casualty Rate and 1-in-4000 Odds
08 Dec 2025
Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Mr. Dale Hanson. Sir. Welcome to the show. Thank you. It's an honor to have you here. So I started interviewing your generation of veterans this year and I've had, I think, three Vietnam vets on this year. And I just want you to know that, you know, I'd I was in the military, went to Iraq, Afghanistan, did some contract work for the agency all over the Middle East.
And I just want to say that your generation is the Vietnam era is what was really the motivating factor for me to enlist in the SEAL teams. Thank you. I watched all the movies, read a lot of the books. I mean, I just was infatuated with the Vietnam War and what you guys were doing over there. So it really is a true honor for me to be able to interview you guys. Thank you.
And you came very highly recommended from John Strykermeyer, our mutual friend. And here you are. He's a good man, too.
Yeah, how long have you guys known each other? We didn't know each other in Vietnam, but we knew each other after. He was DNC North. I was seen Central. So we were only a couple hundred miles apart, but our missions were parallel rather than at the same time. So I knew him at the first Army reunions, the Special Forces ones, and got to be friends right away. Who could not be friends with Tilt?
Right. Yeah. Such an awesome guy. All you guys are awesome people, man. but um well everybody everybody starts with a introduction here so dale hansen welcome home thank you a born-again christian since the age of five a special forces operator and vietnam war veteran who served three tours in the secretive mac v sog at command and control central
innovator behind the adoption of the 30-round magazine for the CAR-15 in SOG, solving a critical battlefield issue through personal initiative. Author of numerous books, including Born Twice and SOG, Missions to the Well, which you detail your missions and those of your comrades. Pursued martial arts, black belts, pilot training, police work in Alaska, and a successful career as a sculptor.
Currently, you're a pastor of a small Baptist church. You're a husband, father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and servant of Jesus Christ. Amen. Welcome again to the show. She said that well. Thank you. Thank you. So... I'd like to do a life story on you, where you grew up, what childhood was like getting into the Vietnam War, how you got into MACV SOG.
And then, you know, I think an important thing for all generations of veterans who went to war is the transition home and how you got over some of the traumatic events and how you got back into the civilian life and, you know, And yeah, but I'm just curious, are you from Alaska?
Oh, northern Minnesota. Northern Minnesota. The northernmost town in continental United States, the cold spot of the United States. And I was mentioning to one of the guys that 30% of Canada is south of northern Minnesota. And Maine and Washington State are 300 miles south if you go to longitude and latitude. And it seems to come down right there at my hometown. It's pretty cold. Wow.
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Chapter 2: How did Dale Hanson's military background influence his life?
And so this is from Moose. How was our country different before you left for Vietnam versus when you came back? It seems the country has changed in many ways as it was during Vietnam. What do you think of the state of our country now and are you hopeful for our country's future?
An extremely good question. And I think... We seem to notice things when they happen quickly and violently in great degree. We're losing our country incrementally, piece by piece, and most of it is the moorings that we have. We were founded, in your own recollection, we were founded on the Judeo-Christian ethic. We were a Christian nation.
Specifically, we didn't believe in forcing someone, so therefore you had a privilege of not believing as well. But all of our documents, we hold these truths to be self-evident. We are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, and so on. Everything about our country was on those moorings.
If you look at the media and so forth, those moorings have disappeared. And sometimes I think the only thing that holds it together, the glue and so forth, is well-being. People figure as long as I'm happy and well-being and my bills are paid and all that stuff, I'm happy with the country. And we watch and let it dissolve.
Some of the old preachers from years and years and years ago would say that. Apart from revival, our country will be lost. I mean, what will it take to save America? In every state in the United States, the major city is left-wing to the point of almost being socialist. So I have a lot of concern for America. And like the old time, it's going to take revival.
People are going to have to turn back to the moorings, which made us great in the first place.
I don't think I could have said that any better myself. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Man, it just, I don't know, just makes it more real when somebody like you says it. Really does. Yeah. All right. Let's move into the interview. So where did you grow up?
Say that once more. Where did you grow up? When did I grow up? Where? Mainly International Falls, Minnesota. I guess some of the foundational things about life and who made me or what made me what I am. I think it's kind of instructive to you see the end result of who you are, what made you into that, what was the ingredients in that recipe.
And there were a couple of them for me that were foundational that made the character of Dale Hanson who I am. And the first one was when I was five years old. I became a Christian, which sounds kind of strange maybe to some people. But I apparently had a good mind, and I could converse with adults on pretty much a straight level.
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Chapter 3: What were the challenges faced by MACV-SOG soldiers?
And I accept Christ's gift that he did on the cross. And I became a Christian. All that at the age of five? Yeah, at five. And it must have been one of the first, things of definitive courage that I did, because beyond just the spiritual thing, I physically thought that I was going to be tossed off that bridge or jump off myself.
But, you know, obviously it was wrong because I was understanding the metaphor. But that's been who I am the rest of my life. The Bible says you're born again, which is how I got the title for my first song book, you know, is that... the experiences in Vietnam and what we went through was horrendous. Our odds of living was one in 4,000.
And it was so unique that when you come out on the other end, you're not the same person again. And so anyway, that was kind of the first. That's a vivid memory for a five-year-old. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Remember, I don't know what happened to my brains, you know, but I remember being across the breakfast table from my Grandma Hanson and one of my uncles, and I would be talking to them, talking to them, and they would just be smiling and listening to me talk, you know, and it never occurred to me until much later, you know, what that was like, you know. But there were a couple other...
cornerstones in my life that made me who I was. Perhaps the third one, I didn't say a second one, but as a young Christian, you want to be as Christ-like as you can. You want to, I mean, you're a new person, you want to emulate or emulate. One is burn, one is copy. I don't remember which one. Me neither. Yeah. But you want to emulate Jesus Christ and be as much like him as you can.
And I was reading the Bible, and I think I was about 12, 13 years old, and I came across a verse in the New Testament. Luke... And it talks about Jesus. He was 100% God and 100% man. Had to be God or he'd be a sinner just like us. And he had to be man to represent me. I'm forgetting where I'm at.
seeing the um age 13 you're reading the bible it goes like this and and jesus grew and waxed in wisdom and stature in favor with god and man and of course the word wax means increased and increased and and i i was really captivated by that verse it said jesus was perfect in four different areas if i'm going to emulate him
i should be also in those four areas which so often in christianity and spiritual things we think of just the spiritual which says and jesus grew and waxed in wisdom and stature and favor with god and men and so i i was looking at that as a young teenager he was perfect physically
intellectually socially spiritually and so i tried my best and to to be as close to perfect as i can in all those areas so so physically i worked out hard and i i don't know if anyone in the high school ever did but i worked out hard my pull-ups three sets of 35 and the dips was three sets of uh And so when I worked on it really hard, I jogged and all that kind of a thing.
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Chapter 4: What was the significance of Dale's first mission?
And he would have been a general in the Egyptian army. And then David, King David, the shepherd boy who killed Goliath, they used to sing, Saul hath killed his thousands, but David his ten thousands. And all the way down the line, there were heroes. And in the New Testament, when it talks about the Christian life, Ephesians 6 talks about putting on the armor of God and all this kind of thing.
So the metaphors of war are there. That's interesting.
So you actually...
you did all the research before you went yeah most of the time i was actually in college i mean a serial student and uh um uh i think it was in my third third year a year to go and um i believed in the war i'm very anti-communist Anyway, I kept thinking, reading the newspaper, so many GIs have been killed and all that stuff. I'm thinking, I'm ready to die if I have to.
I'm not eager, but I'm ready. The least I can do is do my part. What a shame it would be at the end of this war, being healthy and intelligent, that I didn't do my part. So I quit and enlisted with the pre-viso that I'd be able to try for Special Forces.
wow so you you you wanted special forces right yeah it's the only thing if i'm going to do this i'm going to be the best there is that that's all there is to it i'm not going to be anything else you know how old were you when you made that decision um probably 21 21 i think so third year of college what were you in what were you in school for Major? Yeah. Theology. Theology? Yeah.
Yeah. Of course, you take all the other stuff. What was the one thing that you saw that made you decide to go the military route?
That's a good question because it makes me think. It was probably atrocities I saw from the other side, how horrific communism is. I knew philosophically how bad communism is and how they enslave and murder people. to see it firsthand. And of course, you had the one American who did this atrocity for the whole war, Cali, Lieutenant Cali. But it was routine fare for the enemy.
They would wipe out entire villages and so forth, or leave one alive so that he could tell people who did it, you know. And that might have been a good part of it.
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Chapter 5: What critical moment does Dale recount involving a helicopter rescue?
And I said, take the rope, wrap it around Ken Wardley, a Swiss seat, and wrap it around him. And take the satchel and put it down his shirt. And you and he get out of here because I wanted that out of here. So he did. He did. And then one of the other Vietnamese from the other end ran to the helicopter too and got on. And so then I went back to my place. And I get my rifle back.
I think it was from him. So I got my rifle back now.
Chapter 6: How does Dale describe the aftermath of a firefight?
So I'm fighting with a one-piece rifle and a wounded rifle, you know, and I'm fighting. And things are getting pretty wild. But then all of a sudden, Bob Garcia runs over. And he says, where's Ken? Where's Ken? And I said, he's dead. I just sent him out. And then Bob and I are from here to your wall apart. And he gets on the radio, and he looks at me for confirmation.
He says, I want, I think it was 100, the big bombs, whatever it is, 500, whatever it is, I want it right on me, and I want it right now.
Chapter 7: What challenges did Dale face when returning home from Vietnam?
And he says, it's too close. And he says, you'll be killed. And he says, I want it right now. That's an order. And he looks at me. That's OK with you? Yes, because we're about to be dead anyway. And so he runs to his end, and then the bombs start coming like crazy all over the place. And the enemy is still around. You can't kill them all.
Chapter 8: How did Dale transition into civilian life after the war?
And so then the chopper comes, another chopper comes, and I hear yelling for me. And I run over there. It wasn't that far away, maybe 50 feet, 75 feet. And Bob Garcia and the other Vietnamese are already hooked up. And they say, Hanson, come on, come on, hook up. And I thought, in that interval of time, I was the only one left on the ground.
I thought they were dead because I was hearing nothing at all. And this is before the second chapter come. And so I got on the RT-10 radio, the survival radio, which you probably have yourself, or whatever the radio is now, but it used to be a two-piece, and then it was a one-piece. And I got on the radio, and I think I'm the only one left alive. And so I don't know who to call.
I don't know any call signs and all that stuff. And all I know is that when I push that button, every aircraft in the Southeast Asia is going to hear it. And so I push that button, and I say, is anybody out there? And it was so cool. And the copywriter was a dear friend of mine, one I prayed for, and he lived. And he says, I got you, Dale. I got you, Dale, the calmest voice in the world.
That's what I wanted to hear more than anything else. They've got me. We're going to be OK. We're going to get out of this thing, even if I'm the only one left, you know. Then I hear them calling, and there's two of them left. They're already hooked up, ready to go. And then I get in, go over there. And then with my wounded hand, I can't tie the knot. You know how that knot is?
Bring it through yourself. It's like I don't have a hand to do it with. And so I thought, the only thing I can do is I can make the biggest knot overhand knot, and pull it through the loop, snap it in, and hope I did it. It worked. And the chopper lifted off, and it hooked. It's tightened on itself, and that was good. But then it never ends, this mission. Then the chopper is taking heavy hits.
And so instead of going straight up until we cleared the forest, he went horizontal and drug us through the foliage. And I hooked up in the branches of the trees that I was about to be pulled off. And my first assumption, and I'm sure it's what would have happened, is that the crew chief would have seen the dilemma and he would have cut the rope. No use losing the chopper and us, you know?
So about the time he was probably thinking that in his head, I got the last branches done, and we sprung 100 feet into the air. It was like it was a bow and arrow. We just shot into the air. And then we headed toward a base. Doc Peck or Ben had one of those. And I remember it crashed. A couple of things.
One is that I was spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning because the other guys were hooked together on two ropes. Oh, another thing too is that when that chopper came in, there were four ropes. And as I'm looking up, looking for one for me to hook on, The fire was so intense that one of the ropes got shot in two, and I watched it fall to the ground like a snake.
And so I grabbed the one, made the biggest overhand lock, stuck in. Then I'm stuck in the trees, and the tree is just bending, and it's just a second or two before he cuts it. But then when I get the last branch done, and I got the rifle over the shoulder and cutting with my K-bar. And boy, when they gave, we just shot into the air like a bow and arrow. And on the way back, they were low on fuel.
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