Shore Capital Podcast Network

Are We Getting Better?: Measuring What Actually Matters

30 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jackson and Anderson close out the season by addressing the question every leader eventually faces: how do you know talent developmen...

Building a Learning Culture at Scale: Growth Without Dilution

30 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jackson and Anderson explore how to scale professional development across an organization without turning it into a generic, one-size...

Practice Makes Performance: Turning Learning Into Habit

30 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jackson and Anderson tackle why so much professional development doesn't stick. They unpack the gap between feeling inspired in a ses...

Creating a Culture That Grows Leaders: Readiness Before the Title

30 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jackson and Anderson dig into how to build leaders before there's a vacancy. They explore the small, everyday behaviors that signal l...

What Talent Development Really Means: Beyond Training and Programs

30 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jackson Sprayberry and Anderson Williams kick off the Raw Talent series by tackling a deceptively simple question: what is talent dev...

Perpetual Optimism is a Force Multiplier | Garret Dillon

25 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Garret Dillon shares his journey from the 101st Airborne Division to Director of Integrations at Agentis Longevity, and the military-...

Doubling Down on Growth: The Freestone Insurance Story

04 Mar 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Ben Hayes, Nick Baxter, and Austin Bockwinkel share how Freestone Insurance Group is building a nationally recognized insurance platf...

What Makes a Great Board Member: Part IV | Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot & Michael Burcham on Coaching N-1s and Building Scalable Leadership Teams

26 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot, and Michael Burcham focus on the critical role N-1 leaders play in building scalable companies and ho...

What Makes a Great Board Member: Part III | Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot & Michael Burcham on Turning Boards into Strategic Assets

11 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot, and Michael Burcham explore how CEOs can turn their boards into true strategic assets. They share pra...

What Makes a Great Board Member: Part II | Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot & Michael Burcham on Boardroom Behaviors That Drive Results

22 Jan 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot, and Michael Burcham build on the foundation of great board design by focusing on how effective board ...

What Makes a Great Board Member: Part I | Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot & Michael Burcham on Designing High-Impact Boards

14 Jan 2026

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen, Charlie Talbot, and Michael Burcham explore what makes a great board member and how Shore Capital Partners designs bo...

Building the Future of Clinical Research with PhaseWell | Carsten Bick

17 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Carsten Bick shares his path from building healthcare services businesses to leading PhaseWell Research. He reflects on what drew him...

Win the Day, Every Day | Elizabeth Smyers

10 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Elizabeth Smyers shares her journey from occupational therapist to Chief Innovation Officer at PRO-spectus and the mission-driven min...

Inspiring the Next Generation: Jordan Baltimore’s Vision for RISE

04 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jordan Baltimore reflects on his unlikely path from volunteering to rake a baseball field to founding New York Empire Baseball and le...

From Grandma’s Kitchen to Market Maker: The Story Behind SDC Nutrition

20 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Devenee Schumacher shares her journey from her grandmother’s kitchen to founding and building SDC Nutrition into a leading manufact...

From Family Farm to Fortune 500 | Ken Meyer

13 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Ken Meyer shares his journey from growing up on a family farm to leading at Whole Foods and beyond. He reflects on how hard work, hum...

Empowering People, Driving Growth, and Leading with Grit | Tara Conger

05 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Tara Conger reflects on her journey from athletics to executive leadership and how the lessons of great coaches shaped her approach t...

Caring at Scale: The PRO-spectus People-First Story

29 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Amy Madden, Chief People and Culture Officer, and Suzanne Norman, Vice President of Patient Services at PRO-spectus, share how the co...

Saying Yes and Building Better Systems of Care | Dr. Corey Waller

15 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Dr. Corey Waller traces his path from emergency and street medicine to leading systems change in behavioral health. He reflects on ho...

A Career Built on Excellence, Empathy, and Entrepreneurship | Kathy Wanner

08 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Kathy Wanner reflects on a career built on excellence, empathy, and entrepreneurship. From her start at Morgan Stanley to building Ad...

From Vision to Execution: The First Year of Agentis | Jimmy St. Louis

25 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jimmy St. Louis, CEO of Agentis Longevity, reflects on the company’s first year of growth and the lessons learned along the way. He...

Behind the CXO Title: Alison Shekman on Going Slow to Go Fast

11 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, I talk with Alison Shekman, Chief of Staff at PhaseWell Research and a member of the CXO Fellows Program. Alison shares her journey f...

Behind the CXO Title: Driving Value Through Progress with Preethi Menon

09 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Preethi Menon, Senior Vice President of Integrations and Partnerships at Empower Aesthetics. After nearly a decade i...

Behind the CXO Title: Prioritizing What Matters Most with Will Cook

28 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Will Cook, Chief of Staff at Skycrest Roof Co. Will shares his unique path from consulting to serving as an infantry...

Behind the CXO Title: Rachel Scott Garrison on Managing Stakeholders and Relentless Prioritization

21 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Rachel Scott Garrison, CXO at Agentis Longevity. Rachel shares her journey from Dell, Visa, and Deloitte into the mi...

Scaling with Intention: Lessons in Leadership and Growth | Bob Carlson and Michael Burcham

06 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bob Carlson, Operating Partner at Shore Capital, and Michael Burcham, Chief of Strategy, Research, and Talent Development, reflect on...

Courage, Curiosity, and Cold Calls | Joseph Lesser

31 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Joseph Lesser shares his journey to Regional Sales Director at Courser and the purpose-driven mindset that guides his leadership. Gro...

Behind the CXO Title: Chris Dardi on Building Something Bigger Than Himself

30 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Chris Dardi, an alumnus of the CXO Fellows Program who was CFO of Behavioral Innovations at the time of recording an...

The Tidal Wave Effect: Cameron Perkins on Entrepreneurial Momentum

21 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Cameron Perkins shares how a family legacy of both entrepreneurial success and failure shaped his approach to leadership, risk, and r...

Shore University: How We Customize Talent Development

10 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Anderson Williams, Principal of Talent Development, is joined by Jackson Sprayberry, Director of Talent Development, and Ben Gilbert,...

More Than a Job Description | Joy Schunhoff

27 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Joy Schunhoff shares her journey from a 25-year career in human resources to becoming the practice administrator at ENT and Allergy o...

The Operator’s Edge: Charlie Talbot’s Path to CFO and Ongoing Impact

26 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Charlie Talbot shares how two decades in brand leadership and operations paved the way for his success as a multi-time CFO and now Ex...

Shore University: Building a Scalable Learning Platform

18 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Michael Burcham, Chief of Strategy, Research, and Talent Development, joins Anderson Williams, Principal of Talent Development, along...

Shore University: Why Talent Development Matters

11 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Michael Burcham, Chief of Strategy, Research, and Talent Development, joins Anderson Williams, Principal of Talent Development at Sho...

Leading With Heart and Purpose | Kathleen Lee

29 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Kathleen Lee shares her journey from stay-at-home mom and part-time biller to Practice Administrator at Reston ENT. With a background...

Reclaiming Joy: Dr. Kevin Cassidy on Orthodontics, Leadership and Growth

22 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Dr. Kevin Cassidy shares his journey from mowing the lawn at his father's orthodontic practice to joining the team, eventually buying...

Accelerating Growth with a Commercial Center of Excellence | Zachary Nippert

08 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Zachary Nippert, Chief Commercial Officer at Shore Capital, discusses building out the Commercial Center of Excellence (COE) to accel...

Turning Hard Lessons Into Life-Saving Training | Brian Hall

23 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Brian Hall shares how a lifetime of hands-on electrical work, from wiring homes with his dad to overseeing safety at a nuclear power ...

Earned, Not Given: Jim Forrest on Leadership, Grit, and Building Great Companies

02 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jim Forrest shares his journey from bagging groceries at age six to becoming Chairman of multiple high-performing companies. He refle...

Finding Purpose in Physical Therapy | Larry Lawson

26 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Larry Lawson shares his unconventional journey to becoming a Regional Director at Greater Therapy Centers. From earning a Master’s ...

The Search for Opportunity: Michael Aubrey’s Story of Entrepreneurship and Growth

21 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Michael Aubrey shares his unconventional path—from investment banking to his family’s parking business—before using a search fu...

Events: Building Meaningful Connections

06 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Head of Events at Shore Capital, Julia Dilday, shares insights into how thoughtful event design and relationship-building strengthen ...

Building a Legacy Together: The Dynamic Connections Story

26 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we dive into the entrepreneurial journeys and strategic partnerships that drive Dynamic Connections, with insights from CEO Steve Fre...

Strategy: Developing the Strategic Plan

20 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, the Shore Capital Strategic Planning team explores how they partner with portfolio companies to build and execute strategic plans. Th...

The Power of Human Connection | Zaya Ismail

12 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we explore how Zaya Ismail leads with authenticity. He explains how creating a strong clinic culture improves both patient care and b...

Through the SRT Lens: The Evolution of SRT with David Korb

06 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, David Korb, Director on the Shore Resource Team, shares insights into how the SRT supports portfolio growth and enables faster execut...

Through the SRT Lens: Laying the Foundation for Success with Ellie Hupp

30 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Ellie Hupp, a manager on the Shore Resource Team, shares her journey from financial due diligence to hands-on operational support. Sh...

Strategy: Understanding the Strategic Plan

27 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, the Shore Capital Strategic Planning team describes their proven approach to creating, managing, and iterating strategic plans with p...

Through the SRT Lens: Bob Pollard on Growing as a Leader and Mentor

08 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bob Pollard, Senior Director on the Shore Resource Team, shares how the SRT prepared him for a longer-term interim CFO role. He discu...

Through the SRT Lens: Adapting to the Modern CFO Role with Joe Pizetoski

18 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Joe Pizetoski reflects on his career and the transition from the Shore Resource Team to the CFO role. He discusses the value of diver...

Through the SRT Lens: How Hannah Credille Pivoted from Accounting to Operations

11 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Hannah Credille shares her journey from an early career in technical accounting to becoming a strategic leader on the Shore Resource ...

Point C: Continuing the Journey with the Advantage Fund | Ryan Kelley and John Hennegan

10 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Michael Burcham joins Ryan Kelley and John Hennegan to explore the stories behind Point C’s remarkable growth. From Ryan’s discov...

In Memoriam: Sharing the Light | Andrew Malone

05 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we recognize our Shore Capital team member Andrew Malone who we lost far too soon after a brief illness. Starting in the summer of 20...

Through the SRT Lens: How Brandon Coan Forged His Path to CFO

20 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Brandon Coan, CFO of Hueman People Solutions, reflects on how his experience with the Shore Resource Team prepared him for his first ...

Research: Supporting the Shore Investment Lifecycle

13 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Caitlin Zager dives into how Shore Capital utilizes research to guide investments from initial analysis to exit. She discusses the im...

Driven by Compassion, Fueled by Positivity | Peter Nguyen

06 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Peter Nguyen, Director of Market Access at PRO-spectus, discusses his journey fueled by positivity and genuine enthusiasm. Starting a...

What Makes a Great CEO: Part V | Executives Bill Clendenen & Michael Burcham on What Gets a CEO Fired

25 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen and Michael Burcham discuss what can get a CEO fired. They outline the CEO’s core responsibilities: setting a clear ...

What Makes a Great CEO: Part IV | Executives Bill Clendenen & Michael Burcham on Strategy

24 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen and Michael Burcham explore the essence of strategy for CEOs, explaining how it defines a company's plan to win, while...

What Makes a Great CEO: Part III | Executives Bill Clendenen & Michael Burcham on Building a Winning Team

23 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Bill Clendenen and Michael Burcham discuss the vital role of team building for CEOs, particularly in scaling businesses. They highlig...

Unlocking Longevity: Redefining Health and Wellness | Jimmy St. Louis

17 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Jimmy St. Louis, CEO of Agentis Longevity, talks about how his passion for sports sparked his interest in health and wellness, ultima...

Transforming Lives Through Mental Healthcare | Amanda Skrinjorich

16 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Amanda Skrinjorich, Senior Medical Resource Director at Harmony, opens up about her journey into mental healthcare and what inspired ...

Behind the CXO Title: How Ryan McNally Went a Mile Deep in His Niche

09 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Ryan McNally, COO of Courser, reflects on his journey from investment banking and private equity to operations. The CXO Fellows Progr...

Becoming a CEO: Lessons in Patience, Grit, and Leadership | Peter Roehmholdt

03 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Peter Roehmholdt to discuss his journey from KPMG audit to CEO of Great Lakes Dental Partners. Peter shares how his ...

Behind the CXO Title: Recognizing Your Potential with Beth LaBossiere

18 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Beth LaBossiere, Chief of Staff at Whetstone Distribution, shares how the CXO Fellows Program helped her transition from consulting t...

From Tactical Ops to Treating Addiction: A Doctor’s Unique Path | Dr. Corey Waller

12 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we explore the journey of Dr. Corey Waller, Chief Medical Officer at Brightview Health, as he reflects on his career, from working wi...

A Legacy of Compassion in Women’s Health | Linda Longo

21 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we explore the inspiring career and personal story of Linda Longo, VP of Operations (previously Regional Director of Operations) at T...

Behind the CXO Title: Shaping Mark Larsen’s Path to CEO

14 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we sit down with Mark Larsen, a CXO alumnus who now serves as the CEO of Connexure, to discuss his remarkable career growth. Mark ref...

Behind the CXO Title: Emily Kahn Reflects on a Year of Growth and Change

07 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Emily Kahn reflects on her first year with Shore Capital's CXO Fellows Program. She shares her transition from being a consultant to ...

Growing, Leading Change, and Developing Your Team at the Speed of Private Equity | Caity Liggon

26 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Caity Liggon recounts her career evolution from a part-time, high school employee to the Director of Billing at Assembly Health. She ...

Behind the CXO Title: Rising to the Challenge with Rob Collins

12 Jul 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Rob Collins of SENTA Partners discusses his experience with Shore Capital's CXO Fellows program. He details joining SENTA unconventio...

The Journey from MBA to CEO | Mark Larsen

26 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we explore Mark Larsen’s journey from MBA to CEO of Connexure. Mark shares how his journey actually began in early childhood entrep...

Scaling a People-First Culture: The FirmaPak Story | Rob Goldberg

12 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we delve into the creation of FirmaPak with CEO Rob Goldberg, Brent Driggers of Container Services (CSI), and Damon Neff of Apex Plas...

What Makes a Great CEO: Part II | Executives Bill Clendenen & Michael Burcham on Excelling as a Shore Capital CEO

31 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, seasoned executives Bill Clendenen and Michael Burcham discuss what it takes to become a successful CEO within a Shore Capital portfo...

Life, Leadership, and Long-Distance Running | Angie Gould

24 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Angie Gould shares the life and leadership lessons she has learned through a lifetime of hard work and a passion for long-distance ru...

From Father to Daughter: The Entrepreneurial Journey and Family Legacy | Allison Therwhanger

17 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Allison Therwhanger describes how her father started a company as an ENT and plastic surgeon with a single innovative idea and produc...

What Makes a Great CEO: Part I | Executives Bill Clendenen & Michael Burcham on Leadership Excellence

17 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, seasoned executives Bill Clendenen and Michael Burcham discuss the crucial attributes of a successful CEO, especially within private ...

Crafting Community Through Cuisine | Alyssa Mason

03 Apr 2024

Contributed by Lukas

We explore the intersection of food, business, and community engagement with Alyssa Mason of RMNG, an experiential marketing agency that has been crea...

From Intern to Principal: A Story of Remarkable Personal and Company Growth | Mickey Jiang

27 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we welcome Mickey Jiang, a Principal at Shore Capital, who has been with the firm since joining as an Intern over 10 years ago. He sh...

The Partnership Development Team

20 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we welcome Jeff Williams, COO of Shore, and Max Martineau, Chief of Staff, who discuss the Partnership Development Team (PDT) and its...

The Power of People-First Leadership | Jennifer Cooper

13 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Jennifer Cooper is the Senior Vice President of Recruitment Process Outsourcing (RPO) at Hueman People Solutions. Starting in the back office of a tra...

From Concept to Commercialization | Don Pierce's Medical Device Ventures

28 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we welcome Don Pierce who is a Partner at Shore Capital Partners and is primarily responsible for the sourcing and evaluation of inve...

The CFO Cohort

21 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we welcome Jeff Williams, COO of Shore, and Riley Looser, Head of the Resource Team, who discuss Shore's approach to CFO operations i...

A Passion for Helping People Find Their Fit | Leanne Watson

14 Feb 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Leanne Watson is the Head of Talent Acquisition at H2O Care Partners where she helps find talent for their entrepreneur partners. Before she joined H2...

Crafting Shore Capital's Vision in Microcap Healthcare | John Hennegan

31 Jan 2024

Contributed by Lukas

John Hennegan is a Founding Partner of Shore Capital and is primarily responsible for the sourcing and evaluation of healthcare investment opportuniti...

Executive Talent Acquisition - Conor Leamy

24 Jan 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we're joined by Conor Leamy, Shore's Chief Talent Officer, who sheds light on his team’s strategic use of pattern recognition and d...

A Life of Learning, Growing, and Innovating | Tyler Kalin

10 Jan 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Tyler Kalin is the Senior Marketplace Manager at Roaming Hunger where he specializes in helping entrepreneurs, franchisees, and brands succeed in the ...

Steering Navia from Family Business to Industry Leader | Hilarie Aitken

13 Dec 2023

Contributed by Lukas

This is the third of our three-part series featuring CEOs who have successfully exited (or recapitalized) a Shore portfolio company. In this episode, ...

HR Center of Excellence - Sarah Gabriel

06 Dec 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Within the Shore Resource Team is a specialized group called the Centers of Excellence (COE). COEs came from operating careers to provide subject matt...

A Journey of Growth and Encouragement | Elizabeth Maddux

29 Nov 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Elizabeth Maddux is the First Shift Supervisor at Container Services, Inc. She started with the company over sixteen years ago as an Entry Level Packe...

From Military to Medicine | Rex Adam's Path to CEO of EyeSouth Partners

15 Nov 2023

Contributed by Lukas

This is the second of a three-part series that features CEOs who have successfully exited (or recapitalized) a Shore portfolio company. This episode f...

Technology Center of Excellence - Imran Shaikh

08 Nov 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Within the Shore Resource Team is a specialized group called the Centers of Excellence (COE). COEs came from operating careers to provide subject matt...

Creating a Legacy Against the Odds | Courtney Sanchez

01 Nov 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Courtney Sanchez is a Vice President of Clinical Operations and Population Health for Point C. Her career started as a nurse and after years in larger...

Revolutionizing Addiction Treatment with BrightView Health | Chad Smith

25 Oct 2023

Contributed by Lukas

This is the first of a three-part series that features CEOs who have successfully exited (or recapitalized) a Shore portfolio company. This episode fe...

Continuous Improvement Center of Excellence - Kevin Williams

18 Oct 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Within the Shore Resource Team is a specialized group called the Centers of Excellence (COE). COEs came from operating careers to provide subject matt...

Passion, Persistence, and Professional Growth | Rob Ruff

11 Oct 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Rob Ruff is the Vice President of Payroll for Strongpoint Partners. Rob has been with HowardSimon the founding partner of Strongpoint for almost 17 ye...

A Tale of Entrepreneurial Grit in Oral Healthcare | Dr. Josh Everts

27 Sep 2023

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we learn about Josh Everts' journey as the founding physician partner of OMS360. Josh discusses the successful multi-site practice he...

RCM Center of Excellence - Sarah Hirsch

20 Sep 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Within the Shore Resource Team is a specialized group called the Centers of Excellence (COE). COEs came from operating careers to provide subject matt...

The Iterative Path to Success | Connor Benjamin

06 Sep 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Connor Benjamin is an Integration Manager for Point C. Connor started with the company with no experience in the third-party administration (TPA) of b...

Paving the Road for Food Truck Entrepreneurs | Ross Resnick

23 Aug 2023

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode we highlight Ross Resnick, CEO of Roaming Hunger. Ross shares his lessons learned from working in two startups out of college and turn...

The Leadership Academy

16 Aug 2023

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, we discuss Shore Capital’s approach to Talent Development, specifically through Shore University’s Leadership Academies. We’ll ...