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Short Wave

Fall foliage is still a mystery: Why do some leaves turn red?

07 Nov 2025

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 19.675 Dean Regas

Dean Regas here, astronomer and host of Looking Up. I journey to the far reaches of the universe, hearing from scientists, astronauts, and geeky celebs along the way. We cover everything from black holes to the latest in science fiction. Listen now to the Looking Up podcast from the NPR Network and Cincinnati Public Radio.

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20.876 - 45.327 Emily Kwong

You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Hey, short wavers. Emily Kwong here. Now, depending on where you live in the U.S., you may be enjoying some fall foliage. You know, the result of colder days, trees preparing for winter, and in some, their chlorophyll, the green pigment, is breaking down. And instead of green, we're seeing these amazing colors, yellow, orange, and red.

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45.307 - 64.079 Emily Kwong

Colors you might tuck into a home decoration. Along with some of those mutant squash you get at the farmer's market, the really warty ones. Hey, Nell. Hey. That's NPR's Nell Greenfield-Boyce. And Nell, from what I understand, you have been getting really into autumn leaves lately. Well, some of them, some of them, particularly the red ones.

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64.52 - 68.547 Nell Greenfield Boyce

I love the red ones. They're so beautiful. People like red leaves and...

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68.527 - 78.828 Nikki Hughes

You know, when I met up with this biologist named Nikki Hughes in North Carolina, she told me my dad always was talking about his quest for the perfect red leaf. Respect.

79.109 - 94.083 Nell Greenfield Boyce

So it's been this lifetime thing, but she's on her own quest now, and that is just to understand red leaves. Why red leaves? Why not yellow? So yellow is in the leaves all along. It's kind of hiding in there. Right.

Chapter 2: What causes leaves to change color in the fall?

94.183 - 115.457 Nell Greenfield Boyce

And so you mentioned chlorophyll breaking down in the fall. And when that happens, it's because the tree wants to recover some key nutrients like nitrogen. Nitrogen is really precious to a plant. It's needed for everything from photosynthesis to making proteins and DNA. And so, you know, the tree is going dormant kind of in winter, but it doesn't want to lose that nitrogen.

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115.497 - 140.569 Nell Greenfield Boyce

It wants to hang on to it. So the chlorophyll gets busted up. The green is going away. And this exposes yellow. Right. OK. And scientists agree on that. The yellow is there. It gets exposed. The red is this completely different thing. Oh, because the red is actually made brand new in the fall. Like, Nikki picked up this one maple leaf, which was this kind of mottled red on yellow.

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140.93 - 149.327 Nikki Hughes

The red was not there beforehand, or you would have seen it, because the leaf would have been purple, because green plus red equals purple. So the question is...

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150.995 - 172.065 Nell Greenfield Boyce

Why does the tree bother to make this red? Especially since the leaf is about to fall and die anyway. Why go through this? Exactly. Like within days, the leaf is doomed. So why go to the effort? Why go to the trouble of making new red colors? And I should note here that these red pigments are also responsible for the leaves we see as orange.

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172.225 - 183.44 Nell Greenfield Boyce

Okay, like Nikki Hughes picked up this other leaf from like a tupelo tree that was red and dark orange. And she said if you looked at what appeared to be orange. Under a microscope, you see lots of red freckles.

183.921 - 188.847 Emily Kwong

Red freckles, that's so cute. Okay, today on the show, the mystery of red leaves.

Chapter 3: Why do some leaves turn red instead of yellow?

189.168 - 192.712 Emily Kwong

What are scientists' best ideas about what a tree might get from going ginger?

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193.113 - 200.222 Nell Greenfield Boyce

Join us as we rustle up some autumn leaf biology here on Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.

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207.391 - 224.337 Unknown

This message comes from WISE, the app for international people using money around the globe. You can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart. Get WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com. T's and C's apply.

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225.616 - 245.784 Anita Rao

I'm Anita Rao, host of Embodied, your source for intimate conversations about sex, relationships, and health. Join me to meet people who will change the way you think about everything from disability to dating, and who will take you into their own lived experiences of how things like being a truck driver or dealing with chronic insomnia shape their identity and relationships.

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246.405 - 251.472 Anita Rao

Subscribe to the Embodied podcast from WUNC, part of the NPR Network.

253.882 - 266.355 Emily Kwong

Okay, Nell, so you and I have talked about how in autumn the level of green chlorophyll goes down and the amount of red pigment goes up, at least in some trees. Right. Not all go red. What do scientists think is going on?

266.403 - 278.125 Nell Greenfield Boyce

It really depends on who you ask, OK? I think everybody agrees that the red pigments offer some kind of protection from light. They can act kind of like sunscreen. Oh, but don't plants like light?

278.426 - 279.749 Emily Kwong

Don't they eat it for breakfast?

281.292 - 302.056 Nell Greenfield Boyce

Yes, but just like with us, too much light can be harmful. And so in the fall, it's cold, you've got chlorophyll going away, and the leaves end up with kind of an excess of light. And that means you've got free radicals forming. These are these destructive, unstable molecules. And it turns out red pigments can mop those up, and they absorb some light.

Chapter 4: What is the significance of chlorophyll breakdown?

331.237 - 335.323 Emily Kwong

Because beautiful as these leaves are, aren't they just going to fall off and die anyway?

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335.371 - 352.355 Nell Greenfield Boyce

So, OK, that is the question, right? I mean, the idea is that the tree is busy scavenging all this nitrogen and nutrients to store them away for the winter. And, you know, the red pigments, the chemical sunscreen may be protecting that chemical activity.

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352.695 - 361.868 Emily Kwong

It's like a last ditch. We're going to help the tree out as it transitions. Fascinating. OK, are there studies and experiments that support this idea?

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361.848 - 370.187 Nell Greenfield Boyce

There are some. Like, there's one study that looked at yellow mutants of three deciduous species that normally turn red. Okay, so...

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370.522 - 374.226 Emily Kwong

three tree species that are normally red, but these ones were yellow.

374.607 - 388.484 Nell Greenfield Boyce

Yeah. And when they shed their leaves, it turns out that those leaves had more nitrogen in them. So the idea is maybe without the red pigments, the plants weren't able to recover that nitrogen and get it out as well as they would have normally.

388.604 - 393.93 Emily Kwong

Like the nitrogen didn't get into the tree itself. It was shed without the red pigment. Fascinating.

394.571 - 416.338 Nell Greenfield Boyce

And people have also noted that trees that live with nitrogen fixing bacteria. So, you know, there's these, you know, species that live kind of like in relationships with bacteria that help them get nitrogen. Yeah. So they have plenty of nitrogen and they don't seem to bother to turn red. Oh, well, that's a really revealing detail. Yeah. I mean, it's it's suggestive, right?

416.458 - 435.518 Nell Greenfield Boyce

I mean, there's a lot of kind of suggestive evidence out there. So like Suzanne Renner told me that trees in Europe tend not to be as red as in the U.S., And she did the study looking at the sunlight that comes in. Actually, you can look at it by seeing what hits solar panels. There's all this data out there on solar panels.

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