The next four years may be challenging for foreign-born scientists who want to work in the United States. Foreign-born workers account for about half of the doctoral-level scientists and engineers working in the U.S., but the incoming Trump administration wants to make it harder for them to get H-1B visas. Some scientists worry a scarcity of H-1B visas may prompt top foreign researchers to work in other countries. If you liked this episode, consider checking out some more episodes on the brain, including the neuroscience of disagreements, fear and fruit flies. Questions or ideas you want us to consider for a future episode? Email us at [email protected]. We'd love to hear from you!Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: What challenges do foreign-born scientists face under the Trump administration?
You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Hey, short wavers. Emily Kwong here. So the next four years are likely to be difficult for foreign-born scientists who want to work in the United States. That's because the incoming Trump administration wants to make it harder for these scientists to get a work visa or a green card. John Hamilton is with me.
As a science correspondent who regularly talks to a lot of these scientists, you've been reporting on what this could mean for research in the U.S., right?
I have. And it sounds like it could be trouble because even though President-elect Donald Trump's focus has been on deporting millions of undocumented residents, that ever could spill over into the visas that allow a lot of foreign-born scientists to work here legally.
Why is there such a concern that that will happen?
The concern is based on what happened during Trump's first term. That was from 2017 to 2021. Early on, the president made a point of targeting a type of visa that allows many scientists and engineers to work in the U.S. It's known as an H-1B visa, and it's for foreign workers who hold at least a bachelor's degree and who have skills that are needed by U.S. companies and research institutions.
I do remember this, the conflict over H-1B visas. And those are used by people who are doing, let's say, computer or software engineering at places like Amazon or Google. A lot of tech hubs use these visas.
Yeah, that's right. I mean, even Elon Musk says he worked under an H-1B visa before becoming a citizen. But, you know, it's not just the tech sector. A lot of researchers at the National Institutes of Health are working under an H-1B visa. But Trump saw the visas as a way to replace U.S. workers with cheaper foreign labor.
Back in 2017, just a couple of months into his first term, he gave this speech at Snap-on Tools in Kenosha, Wisconsin. He was standing in front of this American flag made of red, white and blue wrenches.
This will stop. American workers have long called for reforms to end these visa abuses. And today their calls are being answered for the first time. That includes taking the first steps to set in motion a long overdue reform of H-1B visas.
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Chapter 2: What is the significance of H-1B visas for foreign scientists?
Got it. OK, so how important are these H-1B visas then to science in the U.S.? They're pretty important.
You know, when you walk through a typical research lab in the U.S., you tend to encounter scientists from all over the world. Europe, the U.K., Asia, Australia, the Middle East, South America, you know, everywhere, right? A lot of them came to the U.S. as students because we have some of the best schools in the world. That means they probably came here under a student visa.
But in order to stay and work, they need to either get a green card, which is not a visa. It gives a person permanent residence, and so it's hard to get one. Or they need to get a visa, often an H-1B.
What happens when H-1B visas get then more difficult to obtain?
One thing that happens is that some of the very best scientists simply choose to work somewhere else. I mean, I spoke about that with a brain scientist named Raimundo Baez-Mendoza. For me, he kind of personifies the world of high-level science. He was born in Mexico, got his master's at the Max Planck Institute in Germany, then his Ph.D. at Cambridge University in the U.K.,
That's an impressive roster.
When I first met Raimundo back in 2019, he was working at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School under an H-1B visa. And this was at a scientific meeting in Chicago. And Raimundo was there because he was presenting a poster on behalf of another scientist named Hamid Reza Ramazanpour.
So I'm a colleague of Hamid Reza. He's a great scientist and he's based in Germany. He wanted to come here to present his work and he wasn't able because his visa was denied.
That was because Hamid Reza had an Iranian passport. This was during what was called Trump's Muslim ban, which closed the border to people with passports from certain countries, including Iran.
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Chapter 3: How did Trump's policies affect H-1B visa applications?
Short Wavers, thank you for listening. Make sure you never miss a new episode by following us on whichever podcast platform you're listening to right now. This episode was produced by Rachel Carlson and it was edited by our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones, check the facts. Beth Donovan is our senior director and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy.
I'm Emily Kwong.
And I'm John Hamilton.
See you tomorrow for more Shortwave from NPR.