Chapter 1: Who is Roberto Martinez and what is his role in football?
Welcome to the Goals on Sunday podcast. Our guest this week is Roberto Martinez. And it's a great show. Good to see you.
Morning, Roberto. It's great to see you.
Thank you for coming on.
Pleasure. It's always that yearly visit, but I don't know why Cammy didn't invite me last year.
What?
He didn't get the call-up last year. Cammy, what's that about?
I'll show you the text messages. But you're here now, which is absolutely fantastic. Thank you for having me. You must be still buzzing. To have those players, what you've got, playing for you at Belgium, you must wake up and think... What a result!
Well, it is. I think this generation is phenomenal. Not just from a talent point of view, that I think anyone can maybe put good talent in a dressing room. It's the attitude. We've got the majority of the players playing abroad and they almost celebrate coming back to Belgium. They commit themselves. International football can be very demanding, as you know, Alex.
in the middle of a difficult season with your club, then you need to travel, you need to play two games in the difference of four days, and just to go into Kazakhstan playing against... And you've got the pressure of the whole nation.
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Chapter 2: How does Roberto Martinez feel about Belgium's golden generation of players?
But there is an expectation, there is a feeling that... Belgium could do something important in a big tournament.
Do you find that as a manager or do you try and play it down?
No, I think in our case you cannot play it down. Why would you play it down? These players are used to it. These players are the main players in the best teams around Europe and they expect it to win. They expect it to go out and perform. And I think it's not a pressure that they're not used to. It's a nice feeling. It's almost a target. It's an aspiration to be together.
I think that's what you learn as a manager, a club-level manager, an international manager. When the game is played, the whole nation is behind you. The whole nation leaves every kick of every player. And I think it's important that you come to accept that feeling And I think our players now, they're in a good age.
I would say that we've got almost around four or five players that did nearly the 100 caps, which is an incredible landmark. And I think this group are ready to cope with that sort of pressure.
So you said you got the bronze medal in the World Cup, so you finished third. So did you achieve or underachieve at the World Cup?
Well, without a doubt, this is an achievement because that's never been done before in Belgian football. Bronze medal is a memory that will be treasured forever. You need to see the moment that we arrived in Belgium. It was incredible, the celebration. We had thousands of people in Brussels and it was a real get-together and almost thinking of a big achievement.
I think the difference as well is not just the bronze medal. When you go to the World Cup, you've got two paths. One is when you face Brazil and the other one when you don't face Brazil. Because everyone can go to a World Cup and play without playing Brazil. I think playing Brazil is a real test. Psychologically, you're defeated. You go to the stadium, everything is yellow.
Everyone speaks about the team, the only team that has won the World Cup five times. And you need to find that belief as a team to be able to perform against a team like Brazil. To be able to beat Brazil and knock them out of the World Cup almost felt a sense of achievement. And that's probably... It felt... an achievement rather than just not being able to win the World Cup.
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Chapter 3: What achievements has Belgium made under Roberto Martinez's management?
I've been the technical director as well. So that means that it's not just the games. You've got a day-to-day. We've been able to put a lot of projects in place for women's football, for the development of the young players. And then it's all the professional game. And that's been very interesting. Belgium, for me, is an incredible example.
11 million people and they produce players just because they work together. the federation, the league and almost all the schools, they work together in terms of developing the player in the same manner. Then they speak three languages, which is incredible, the way that you change your mindset and you become a team player when you are so aware.
So it's been fascinating, but I'm based in Belgium, we live outside Brussels, we had a new arrival in the family, so surrounded by girls. enjoying football and family time.
Just one more question on that. You say you're technical director. Was that in the script when they gave you the manager's job?
No, no. But I think obviously our technical director moved to China and took a job in Chinese football. And at that point, I felt that I was... Being a head coach internationally is quite slow pace. When you're used to managing a football club in the British game, you feel that you've got time to do it. And then I think they felt the same way and we had probably the long term of
preparing the Euros and trying to take what we did in the World Cup and expand it through Belgium. We've been working now with the way that we work in the national team with all the age groups, but being able to do it into all the professional clubs, the 24 professional clubs that we have.
So I think the figure of the technical director being linked with the head coach of the Red Devils made a lot of sense. But now in January, we'll try to put another technical director in place and almost set the next five, six years. I'm after a job.
No, Kemi, I need you to stay here with me. OK, we've only just started this partnership. Don't leave me yet.
Kevin De Bruyne goal there yesterday. I don't know if you saw it. It was given to him initially, right, by VAR, who watched it. And then two hours later, they changed their mind and said, David Silva studs. If that's the case, then Raheem Sterling was in the goalkeeper's eyeline. that result can't be changed now. That scoreline, I should say.
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Chapter 4: How does Roberto Martinez handle the pressure of managing a national team?
And if you watch it, maybe the way that the ball is moving, the trajectory, it changes slightly when it goes past David Silva's foot. Now, VAR cannot be certain of that. So if you cannot be certain, you cannot change the decision of the referee. And I think that's where we're going to find the difficulty with BR, because that should be used, BR, throughout, in every ground of the Premier League.
And it happens in many leagues around Europe that the BR hasn't been used in the same manner. And that's going to become a bit problematic. But in this case, if the ball comes from Kevin De Bruyne, it's a goal. If it's clear that David Silva touches it, then it's an offside.
Yeah, so we've got to let them off, really, in Stockley Park, haven't you? And say, well, even with technology, they couldn't really see that it touched. Impossible.
And it would be great to see... If when you broadcast in a game, you can show the images that the VAR referee sees, because so many times it happens that the broadcaster has an image and then the VAR booth have a completely different angle. And that is very difficult for a football fan to accept the role of the VAR or the justification of a decision.
But clearly, if you cannot be certain, the referee's decision should stand. And I think that's what happens in this case. So your man lost his goal anyway. I don't think he was too bothered about that. I mean, he gets the same joy by scoring or assisting, and I think either case he had a great hand on that goal.
I've got to talk to you about him, though. He has just blossomed, and this season is his season.
Yes, yeah. I think it's difficult to give him... a proper description of what his talent is. I've never worked with a playmaker that he can work at a faster pace than what the game brings. I think any playmaker, we used to see the player that slows the tempo down, that needs to get two seconds to think, two seconds to find that pass.
Kevin De Bruyne, he does it all so quickly that he sees the pass even before any spectator has seen it. And that's the dynamic playmaking that he has. In the final third, there is no another player in world football that he has that precision and execution. Every ball in the box is exactly the same, the same level of precision.
So you can see Manchester City, already the runes, they are never into feet, they're always into space. They know where the ball is going to go. I just feel Kevin De Bruyne, with the intensity that he brings in his play, he makes him a unique playmaker in world football at the moment.
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Chapter 5: What is the significance of the World Cup bronze medal for Belgium?
Where we think Manchester City are so from previous seasons. It's been, you just wowed all the time where people are now beginning to look at them and find holes.
Paul, you're going to do that. I think nowadays with technology you can analyse every aspect of a performance of a team. And I think the only way that you can almost hurt Manchester City is in transition very quickly or in dead ball situations. But this is something that is going to happen. I've never seen a team that is expected to win the league, that loses the two centre-halves.
And they're covering winning games. It's like the way they play, they become better and better. Of course, they are involved in the Champions League, they're involved in domestic cups. And they're going to have to cope with injuries and suspensions. But this team, they bring in something that is very special. It's a way of playing. Every player knows exactly what they're doing.
Every player just enjoys doing something for their team. And then the outcome is very difficult to play against Manchester City. Even yesterday, I thought Aston Villa... had a fantastic first half and I think defensively they were really comfortable. It takes one second, you switch off and it's a long ball from the keeper and you won't nail down.
They got that element of almost that arrogant mentality that it takes very little to be successful.
Just one more question before we go off this. You have told me in the past that Johan Cruyff is a coach that you loved. Is Pep a better coach than Johan Cruyff?
Well, I don't know, because I haven't worked with Pep or Johan.
In your mind, when you watch and analyse their play and how they get teams to play?
One thing is the philosophy. I think Johan Cruyff brought that philosophy in football. I think he's the single person that affected football more than anyone else. I think there is a lot of people, iconic people in football, as you will have yours and Alex yours, that you get inspired by.
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Chapter 6: What strategies does Martinez use to develop young football talent in Belgium?
And being a goal scorer at this level has its value. And a very strong value. Now the problem, Romelu is a boy that at 17 was playing as a winger. So he can travel with the ball, he can dribble with the ball, he's got the physicality to run in behind, he's got the physicality to be good in the air, he's got the physicality to come and hold the ball up.
So you can assess him, and he's too good at many things. And many people want to see him excelling at everything. And it's very easy for someone when you're assessing a game of Romelu to highlight something that he didn't do well because he's capable of doing everything. Romelu should be assessed on scoring goals.
He's a goal scorer and if you treat him like that, he can give you a job to the team. If you want to assess him for what he didn't do, it's like asking Messi that he should tackle more in a game. well, the players got their strengths. And I think Romelu can be too good at many things as number nine, and sometimes he gets heavily criticized unfairly, because his role should be scoring goals.
And only the manager knows what you ask from Romelu. I worked with Romelu at Everton as a young player, and he, in the first season, he was a very different player than the season after. He's someone that he developed, but he's still a goal scorer. And in the national team now, he's the highest goal scorer in the history. of the Belgium national team at a very young age.
And those are the stats that make him very, very special at that level. He's a goalscorer.
I suppose that's the thing that people forget, those kind of stats and the goals that he has actually scored. And actually, against Brazil, when you changed the formation and had him a different role, and you could see the strengths and what he did for you in that game.
And the mentality. I think a player in a World Cup, a game that is watched by 500 million people, and you ask him to play out of position or in a different position, it's just the strength and the belief. He's got the mentality to be able to perform under those circumstances. But Romelu Lukaku had a very interesting upbringing. When he was playing, he already had this body at 16 years old.
So for him, it was very difficult to learn to become a number nine because all he needed to do is just move his arm and he was in goal. So the coach in the national team and on the seven teams, Bob Brauiers, played him as a right winger. And that is where he had to learn how to manoeuvre the ball and take those situations in 1v1 in the wide areas. And that's why he became well-rounded.
But the real, real quality is that mentality to score goals.
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Chapter 7: How does VAR impact decision-making in football according to Martinez?
And you'll see it in other leagues around Europe that the VAR now would call the referee and say, I think you need to have a look again. Go and look at the monitor. Exactly. And then he can say, yeah, OK, I can see the contact. We all know that contact is allowed in the box. Contact is not punished.
Then it's his interpretation, the way he's managed the game, to see if that contact should be a penalty or not. For example, what's the difference between Montoya and Richarlison coming together and defending the corner with that incident? Maybe Andrew Matley there would say, no, I can see the contact. Thank you, but it's not a penalty.
Now, what I don't understand is how someone that is totally away from the game, totally away from managing a level of judgment, you referee the game. Makes the final decision. That's not a factual decision. This is an interpretation. Now, the interpretation of the referee should prevail. So I don't agree that the BER remotely watches a referee
AN INCIDENT, AND I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE WHY THAT WAS GIVEN AS A PENALTY, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE ANALYZING, IS MICHAEL KING'S TOE TOUCHING AND IMPEDING AARON? YES. WHERE'S THE BALL? WELL, THEN I THINK THE REFEREE ON THE MOMENT NEEDS TO GIVE THE RIGHT INTERPRETATION, AND THAT'S REFEREEING. THE B.I. SHOULDN'T over-referee the ref. It's almost he needs to help him.
And I think that incident is very dangerous because, as you said, that hasn't happened so far. What's going to happen from now on? I think you can understand why Lee Mason gave the penalty, but I don't think B.I. should be used like that.
I mean, that's the thing, there's still so many questions surrounding VAR, when already they waited two years to roll it out in the Premier League, waiting to iron out all these, but there's still so many things need ironing out.
You know what I said to you about the pulling and shoving, about next week we'll see a penalty given? I think because we highlighted those penalties being blatant, that they decided to give one this week.
But the BIA is positive. I think we shouldn't confuse the football fan. BIA is positive when it's a tool to help the referee to make a final decision or something factual. Now, when there is interpretation, we're still too green. In the first season, we've been working with it in Belgium, and this is the fourth season.
And I can tell you every year it gets better, but it's because everyone has got a different criteria and it makes the tool work for the referee. At the moment, I think we've gone too quickly in the Premier League, allowing the VAR to affect him too much this season.
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