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Chapter 1: What is the main concern regarding AI and national security in Australia?
Well, I think the technology sector more broadly is experiencing its own version of what I call the Wild West. Whether you're Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg, you have the same amount of influence in the international system, which was previously only the domain of nation states. And that is new.
We've got all the ingredients we need, particularly in the global south, to develop data center and AI technology centers of excellence that could lead the world. So the world will not wait. There's no alternate. We have to do this and we've got to do it as a priority. We want to be the place to do business for the next hundred years when it comes to these emerging technologies.
G'day I'm Andrew Williams and this is part three of our special Squizz series on artificial intelligence. Mindaroo Foundation is an Australian philanthropy driven by a commitment to create a future where people and the environment we depend on can thrive and they have a focus on AI particularly how we can find the right balance between protecting people and unlocking its benefits.
Their own research shows that Aussies want to see the government take the lead on this. To speak to how our government should respond, we've spoken with Professor Ian Langford. Ian is definitely a big picture thinker. He's a former brigadier in the Australian Defence Force, and he's since turned his attention to looking at how artificial intelligence plays out in national security.
He talks about the link between energy and national security, how the global world order has changed, and what we need to do to keep ourselves secure. Here's Ian. So let me start with a very big question. What do you see as the number one security risk when it comes to AI for Australia specifically?
Yeah, it's that convergence between the changing global landscape.
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Chapter 2: How does the changing global landscape affect Australia's security?
So the liberal international order and rules-based system are gone effectively. Great power competition is back. It never really went away, but we had this Cold War peace dividend in 91, which gave us a false sense of security that somehow we could use the United Nations to prevent conflict and war. And sadly, that's not the case.
And we're reminded because of the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, war in the Middle East and competition in East Asia that, you know, war as an instrument of the global system, as an instrument of policy is predominant and sort of recognising and understanding that's really important.
When you converge that around the impact of technology and the pace and scale of change, which we're at the very front end of, then you can see the kind of risk and uncertainty that it creates. So whether you're an individual experiencing the disruption through job loss as a result of AI, or whether you're a prime minister trying to understand the new world order,
assumptions around alliances, security guarantees, and whether they are meaningful anymore, you can understand the level of uncertainty that we all experience today.
Is there an accepted wisdom? And I'm expecting the answer is probably no. But in terms of how, say, Australia's Prime Minister should try and navigate this new order, particularly from an AI perspective?
Well, his challenge is that he's leading a political system which is now in the minority worldwide. Yeah. So we have democracy on the retreat across global systems. We've seen the return of the strong man. And sadly, it is gender specific right now when you think about people like Putin and Xi and so forth.
And so how do we protect our democracy and our political system in a world that is under threat? And when you add on AI, which is all pervasive, and effectively gives certain individuals the same power and influence in the international system that was previously only the domain of nation states, you can understand how disruptive that is.
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Chapter 3: What challenges does Australia face in regulating AI technology?
So for good or for ill, whether you're Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg, or you are a state leader in old Europe or new Asia, You have the same amount of influence in the international system, which was previously only the domain of nation states. And that is new.
And I think people like the prime minister and the government he leads are grappling with how to deal with these issues in ways that protect our values, but also safeguard our interests.
So that's where regulation would potentially come into play, right? So you've got these big tech companies, like you mentioned, leaders of big tech companies who now have an enormous global influence. What kind of regulation is potentially available to Australia to try and protect against an undue level of influence?
Well, I think the technology sector more broadly is experiencing its own version of what I call the Wild West. So regulation in this country obviously only has limits at the very edge of our sovereignty and doesn't mean anything internationally or in the international system.
And so how do we harmonise our own legislation and regulation to take the best advantage of these technologies internationally? but also protect us from their threats is really the challenge of our time.
And the other thing, sadly, I think, in the global system today is we've seen the loss of influence of global safeguards and systems that the UN has designed and other international bodies designed which really now are options for nations, which were previously laws and conventions under international agreements and international law.
Nations seem to either opt in or opt out of what were previously obligations and expectations in terms of their behaviour. So the system has become quite lawless. We've got hyperscalers whose interests are commercial and based on a capitalist system that doesn't necessarily recognise or reconcile with our own national interests.
And yet we are dependent on them to make sure that we have the kind of economy and technology systems that can ensure productivity and keep Australia where it needs to be, both in terms of its economic growth, its capacity to safeguard its own interests and the contribution it makes to the global order.
So stuck a little bit in the middle between wanting to harness the power of what these platforms and technologies can do and then also not be overrun by them essentially and give them too much power over how we behave as a country.
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Chapter 4: What role does energy policy play in national security?
And I think from Australia's point of view, what does it mean to not be able to hyperscale a large language model and instead have to rely on a US company or a European company to do that on our behalf? How do we maintain sovereignty and absolute control over these systems that will influence decision-making in all aspects of the lived experience of Australian citizens going forward?
And these challenges need to be dealt with one way or the other in the next two to three years, or we will suffer as we must, to use again that saying from the days of futilities.
You mentioned there's a lot of risks in there, but you did mention as well that there are some opportunities. Where are the opportunities, I guess, particularly from an AI perspective in terms of what Australia could do to try and lift its influence in this area?
Yeah, well, there's three dimensions, I think, around a first principles approach to these advanced technologies. And when I say AI, I also mean the...
the system of systems around it to include everything from critical undersea infrastructure, which connects our data pipes to the world, all the way through to data centers, which gives us the opportunity to warehouse ours and other information, all the way through to incorporating a hyperscale technology such as a language model to inform future decision-making.
So it's the whole end-to-end system. If I think about data centers, for example, the three elements which we have in abundance, we have good people, We have plenty of geography to build and generate capacity to warehouse our own and other data across the region. And the other thing we have is energy.
Now, our energy policy has all sorts of challenges, whether it be aged and critical infrastructure and its upgrades, or indeed the debate around nuclear power going forward, or the challenge of an energy transition that's focused much more on renewables. But the reality is we have plenty of sunshine.
We also got plenty of influence in the international energy sector, which means when you combine geography and people and energy, we've got all the ingredients we need, particularly in the global south, to develop the kind of hub and spoke data center and AI technology centers of excellence that could lead the world.
I mean, if a country like Singapore could do it, which is different as a city state in the middle of Southeast Asia that can more easily connect into that system, that regional system. We can absolutely do it. When I think about the connection, for example, of undersea cables between Australia and Africa, which is the first global south point to point undersea cable of its type.
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Chapter 5: How can Australia leverage its geographical advantages for AI development?
hub in the global spoke or the system that will effectively govern and distribute data traffic moving forward. So Australia's geography is exquisite in terms of connecting the Pacific and the Indian Ocean. We're also exquisite in connecting, you know, the most important economic region for the next 100 years, which will be Eastern Northern Asia to, you know, the US and to Europe.
So, you know, we're blessed with geography. The three elements of any strategy, whether that be technology, national security, or what have you, are geography, the political system, and the economy.
Now, some would argue that we have what many have called a low complexity economy, which is to say that we dig stuff out of the ground and we sell it to others that are willing to then turn it into a high complexity technology. I think there's an element of that is true and there's a bit of cultural cringe around it.
We shouldn't necessarily not be proud of what we've achieved in mining and engineering and other areas, but the fact is that can't be the only export commodity by which we measure value going forward.
And we need to move from low complexity to high complexity, which is to say that not only do we provide those raw and critical minerals to the world, but we also move further up the value chain to do things like add a technology dimension so that it is an additive technology that gets exported. So turning a critical mineral into a product or a service is part of the solution.
Housing data and being able to distribute data, Australia is well placed to do that and we should take full advantage of the opportunity.
Yeah, so let's expand on that idea. There may be people listening to this that have seen a data centre pop up near them. I know it happened to me. What does that look like going forward? If we really harness that opportunity, what does that look like in terms of how many data centres we have in Australia or how prevalent they are, do you think?
So the first element of a data center investment in Australia, I think, is what many would call a social contract. In order to have a social license, you need a social contract. So said Rousseau. So a data center isn't there to steal power. It's not there to drive up energy prices.
And it's not there to announce a global company that is there intentionally to drive in value and extract profit without doing things like paying income tax and so on and so forth. And that tends to predominate the debate.
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Chapter 6: What opportunities exist for Australia in the AI sector?
So, you know, nationalizing fuel supply chains, which we've seen since this current crisis in Iran sort of become a, you know, very much a focus of government. How do we bring the same level of conversation around what resilience looks like, which part of that system that we need to nationalize in order to own, and
to be able to go and bring that technology front of mind into our version of ourselves in the future that will be the best version of ourselves. And there's no healthy future for Australia that doesn't see us warehouse technology, that doesn't see us harness AI and doesn't see us use technology
the tremendous talent in our workforce to be able to build the kind of wealth creation that needs to happen through those technologies and additive elements of what will define us going forward. So there's no alternate. We have to do this and we've got to do it as a priority.
And does that play into also our, I guess, if we have data stored, if we have that capacity on our shores, does that also help us with making sure that we're keeping it secure, that we're keeping not only, I guess, critical national data, but also individuals' data secure on our shores because we're not handing over that power to, you know, foreign company?
Absolutely. So there's two elements to this, coming back to the social licence, social contract dimension. You know, we know Australians are concerned about privacy. We also, we know they're concerned around safeguards as it relates to the, you know, the reuse and distribution of of information for other purposes.
And so being able to onshore that, being able to effectively lock it down, gives the kind of assurance to our citizens that will make them more confident that when they share data, it's done so for the appropriate reasons.
The other element of things like copyright and how do we make sure our creative and art sectors can maintain their livelihood, frankly, in the first instance, but also how we can enjoy the benefits of that work in the context of our nation state and what we own and what we have privilege to have sovereignty over both in the public and private sphere. So there's a social contract dimension.
And then there's the reality of a changing global order where there are those in the system that seek to do us harm. We know every day there are denial of service and penetration activities on our critical systems in the hundreds, if not thousands, coming from nation states that say they're going to do something on one hand but do something on the other. They wish to do us harm.
So that securitization of those systems, protecting that critical information so others can't bring harm to us both now or indeed if they can warehouse that information to weaponize it in the future is a really important dimension of bringing data, bringing it onshore, making it sovereign, and then being able to have control over its distribution.
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Chapter 7: How does data sovereignty impact national security?
With that beginning point, what do you think good leadership looks like from here?
So I think, you know, an expression of confidence that this technology is consistent with a future version of Australia where we are the best versions of ourselves. So this is undeniably an opportunity. We have the people and skills, we've got the research foundation, we've got the infrastructure and we have the access to energy to be able to be a world leader on this.
We've also got the kind of democratic and sort of capitalist-based financial systems that allow hyperscalers to invest here for the long haul with confidence that they will get a return on investment. We've also got, I think, broadly, agreement across all elements of politics that understand this opportunity is fleeting. So the world will not wait.
There is a hub and spoke that will happen in the global south. We have providence and we have ownership on whether it will be in this country or not.
So the opportunity is there, but it's about taking it now and not waiting.
Yeah. It's not about a version where we only warehouse our own data and place sovereignty around the ability to lock it down. Okay. That's the dumb version of data and AI in execution. Yep. The smart version is that we do that.
But we also provide the hub and spoke for the globe in Africa, in Southeast Asia, in the Southwest Pacific, and that we're able to provide the safeguards and systems that make AI and its distribution, as well as management of data, a natural place for all of those countries to dial into.
We want to be the place to do business for the next hundred years when it comes to these emerging technologies.
Yeah. Ian, thank you very much for your time.
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Chapter 8: What future actions should Australia take to enhance its AI capabilities?
Really appreciate you sharing all that with us.
Great. It's a great privilege and again, all the best to you all. Thank you.
Thanks for listening and thanks to the Mindaroo Foundation for making that interview possible. For more on their research around AI, a link is in your show notes.