Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
If I had come in swinging or if I had come in like, all right, conservatives, let's put you in pocket, you redneck hillbilly morons, then it would have been a disaster. It would have been a disaster. From Jubilee Media, this is The Surrounded Podcast. I'm John Regalado, and this is our first follow-up episode. I will be interviewing Xander.
He was at the center of last week's episode of Surrounded. He debated 25 conservatives focused on LGBTQ plus issues. And I will be asking Xander what the experience was like from his perspective. And we'll be digging into some of the most heated and interesting moments of debate throughout the episode. So let's get into it. Xander, thank you for being here. John, thank you for having me.
So this is the first official follow-up, which is... Come on, debut. Yeah, debut. So yeah, the intention of this pod is trying to get to a human level and finding a comfortable way to hold disagreements. And yeah, you... You definitely gave that your all in the episode of Surrounded you were in, which I've watched. You haven't seen the footage yet.
You don't know what the comments are going to be. It's going to be pretty heated and intense, but I'm curious how you feel about the experience and just how it's sitting with you right now. Yeah, it was a really interesting experience. And it was obviously intense, but it was also really enlightening. These conversations are conversations I have every single day at Sea Alliance.
And so I was very prepared to deal with that type of opposition and that type of emotion. And I think what I wasn't expecting was people being so vulnerable and being so willing to talk after the conversation and have aha moments and make concessions or just... move on some of the issues. There's some people who are going to appear on the show that people already know, such as Ben Shapiro.
You were admittedly like a new face, a new name to me.
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Chapter 2: How did Zander Moricz prepare for a heated debate on LGBTQ+ issues?
How did you get into this work? Yeah, I'm Florida grown. I grew up in Sarasota. I have been organizing since I was 15. I founded C Alliance or Social Equity through Education Alliance as a club at my high school. It was really focused on how do young people, how do students get a better grip into and control over local politics. We were kicked off of campus very quickly, which...
checks out and we decided, okay, we're either going to disband or we're going to pivot and we're going to become something new. And we decided to become a community organization. And what we found is that school boards are the best place to build power. They're winnable. They center young people and they result in electoral gains in all other levels of government too.
And so by starting in a school board, creating momentum in a school board, winning in a school board, you're setting the path to do so up the ballot. And we started having a lot of success and we started winning and we started making really powerful relationships. And so things just really spiraled up and the momentum has kept going. Did you grow up in a political family?
Because you're good at this. You're good at politics and it seems like you're very passionate about it. And I'm curious, where did the spark come from? No, I did not grow up in a political family. Both of my parents work in mouths. There's a dentist and an orthodontist. Shout out to you. Interesting.
They are not politically involved, but I also wouldn't say I'm particularly interested in politics as much as required to be. The idea of politics itself doesn't attract me, but the policy that is devoured within politics and the way people's lives are shaped by it is so fundamental to everything that it is just essential to get into it and to think about it.
Had you seen the show before Jubilee reached out? Yes, I had. I had seen some clips on TikTok and I had ended up watching the Michael Knowles one on YouTube. you're not really married. You have a relationship with a man, but you're not really married. I understand that you think that, and that's fine.
And did you have any feelings or frustrations or positive, like, I'm just curious what your impression was of the show. Yeah, I had lots of feelings. I thought a lot of the conversations were really incredible. And I think it was really clear to me that
a lot of people arrive with the intention of having a viral one-liner or having a gotcha moment and less of an aha moment and more of a destruction and less of a realization. And I thought that was unfortunate, but I also think that it's just important to have these conversations and for people to see that clash of perspective. And so all in all, I still thought the series has been productive.
I just wish that people would show up more with, okay, how do we be vulnerable in this space? How do we try and have a productive conversation? Yeah, you're right. It can devolve into political porn. It can become a format that platforms an opinion and a worldview that a viewer believes is harmful.
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Chapter 3: What insights did Zander gain from interacting with conservatives?
And I deeply believe they're doing it for a selfish interest, and I believe it is harmful to the young people. And so we think about what grooming is. It's trying to take advantage of young people for your own personal benefit. And here it's more political than sexual, but I thought it was a really important comparison.
An unfortunate truth to what you're saying, and this just seems to be, I think, a condition of this moment that we live in, especially because of phones. young people really are the currency of culture. I mean, people are the currency of culture, and young people are just especially influential and impressionable right now. And so whether it's MAGA, or dark MAGA, or I think liberal values,
Like you're seeing young people pick that up through social media. But there was a disagreement that you had with Michael just for a moment where, I mean, I think he said like the LGBTQ community is organized and you guys have an agenda. And you pushed back on that. You were like, we don't have agenda. There's no agenda.
What you're actually trying to say is that the agenda that LGBT activists... There is no agenda. Everyone has an agenda. It doesn't matter. Will the LGBTQ activists make it sound like there's a coordinated agenda when in reality there's a bunch of people who want equal rights? If you're an organized group, you have an agenda. We're not organized. I promise we're disorganized. Okay.
Yeah, I think it's just important to note that the queer and trans community is not the Illuminati. And we don't meet underground once a season and conveniently place people in positions of power and decide, okay, we're all going to start saying this. We're going to start doing this. We're going to contact HBO and make them push this. Like, that is not happening, I think.
And I think it's just important to unpack that. Because people do genuinely believe that there are punch cards. And it's like... It is a membership. It is being queer and trans as a political movement. And our attempt is to change the political structure of the United States of America. And in reality, that's just not true.
Identity has been politicized and therefore it has to come forward in politics. Either queer and trans people stick up for themselves and say, no, I deserve and demand civil rights or we don't get them. And now because we've been forced into this political situation because of an identity that is not inherently political, it's politicized. I think I totally understand what you're saying.
You're not a card-holding queer. That's not a thing. And I think that makes sense. I think on the flip side, I can see what Michael's saying, though, is there are
organizations that have political methods and goals to further the rights of the lgbtq plus community and so you know at the end of the day i think it is just a reality and so i could see somebody hearing you say we're not organized we're not a political movement as you denying a reality and so like there was like a little bit of this dissonance i i saw with you and michael
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Chapter 4: How does Zander define grooming in a political context?
And if I had two months to have that conversation with her, I think there's a chance we end in a place where it's like, okay, I can see how it is not against the Christian worldview to have man on man sex. And over time, I believe that she could separate herself from that really strong opinion. It's just the fact that we get to these places that feel really hard.
And the only answer is lean into the pure discomfort of of the conversation or pull away entirely. Eventually, for some people, you're going to have to have a conversation about buttholes. And that is ridiculous. And because you shouldn't have to, and it's so ridiculous, it's almost instinctual just to be like, oh my God, I'm not talking about anal sex with you, you fool.
And that's a valid reaction. But also to that person, they're going, yeah, of course you don't want to talk about anal sex because it's dirty and you're a freak and you know what you're doing is wrong. And suddenly they walk away vindicated. They walk away validated. They're like, yeah, I don't want to talk about anal sex. And I do today. Cause it's evil.
But if you can kind of just lean in and be like, Hey, you said like G spot. Yeah. I was going to bring up the G spot comment. So I don't like reverting to that. Cause it's ridiculous, but it is like, it, it's no, I should spark things. Like it's no, I, I, I thought it was a funny response. I see why it's kind of disarming and funny at the same time.
And I liked what you said, like the thoughts are always coming from somewhere. I think that's a really provocative idea. Like you can always trace the thoughts back to a source and there's always a direction for self-discovery. So I think that's really interesting. A question I had for you is like, you know, when you're confronted with... confrontation like that, what is going on in your body?
What are you feeling in your body, in your head over the course of time? I think, especially when I started having these conversations in high school, I was having them with people twice my age and I got way more emotionally invested. I would go for the kill shot, the funny line, the ha ha ha every time. The kill shot. Yeah. I was like, what is the most disgusting read?
What is the cleanest, brutal takedown that I can provide to this person to show them that they're stupid? And that would be the name of my game for a while. But if the goal is to instead change the way people think about things, that has to be done way less aggressively and way more surgically. And I think that...
That also doesn't mean just sitting back and being like, oh, I'm sorry you don't like me. It does mean showing up as someone that they can feel they need to challenge, and they can respect, and that is holding their own. And that is, at times, when you need to be aggressive. But it isn't about being aggressive. It's about trying to challenge the perspective.
And I think the fact that they didn't feel like I deeply hated them was so important to this. And there was one moment. I don't know if it'll make it into the cut. But one of the people walking away is like, I hope you don't hate me now. Thank you. Thank you And I'm just like, I don't hate you. I don't hate any of... There's too much information for us to all be on the same page.
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Chapter 5: What arguments were made about LGBTQ+ representation in media?
And by trans people, I mean, trans adults, right? I think where a lot of the people who swing between parties get concerned and get antsy is around what is the right way to approach people experiencing gender dysphoria as minors, trans youth, whatever the right way is to label that experience and that population. And there's a lot of disagreement there.
And there was a lot of disagreement in the episode about what is scientific consensus. And you were very confident in citing the organizations and the studies that you see as supporting your perspective. But I guess I'm curious, do you think the ink is dry on the science there? Or do you think there is justification for caution and nuance once we get to minors?
All of the science is saying we need to be cautious when it comes to minors. I don't think the ink is ever dry. What I will say is that every major, every respected medical organization on the planet agrees that gender-affirming care for young people is not only appropriate in certain circumstances, but it is lifesaving.
And to look for really niche studies that have been poorly done, funded by very questionable people, and are not peer-reviewed as competing evidence for what is the closest to medical consensus you can arrive at in modern history isn't genuine. It doesn't make sense. It's not real in the arguments. And that's why a lot of times I'd be like, what you're saying isn't happening.
And they're like, well, it has happened once. So now I know you're lying. And it's just like, I'm not saying things have never happened before. I'm saying the situation you're characterizing and what you're trying to get me to admit to is happening isn't happening the way you're putting it. What you're concerned about, what you're saying, what you're promoting in this conversation isn't happening.
And I saw that, I saw that come up a lot though, where it was like, you're saying you were like, no, it's not happening everywhere the way you're suggesting, but they're saying, but it has happened. And both of those are true, but like they're very different ways of looking at reality and characterizing it. Yeah, and again, I think it's about being genuine about it.
Are we, what is the intention of you bringing, because it's really like you have to put your blinkers on and go full tunnel vision through the information to get to the places they're going without reading 100,000 sources that are going to challenge their viewpoint, explain why the source that they're about to cite isn't correct, and then give them new information to consider instead.
But the people who cited evidence in this conversation didn't do that. They didn't even try and didn't even do that. There were some, I, and again, I'm not an expert. I didn't like prepare heavily for this part of the studies they cited. That's on page 14 of the Google search results.
And so if you're only citing that without the context of everything around it, I can't legitimately believe that you're attempting to have information. Again, I don't know the exact studies they were citing, but what I can say is it seemed like there was genuine pushback towards your characterization of some of the specific studies.
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