Tyler Cowen Doesn't Think America Should Ban Chinese AI Models
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
And without further ado, our first guest of the show is in the waiting room. We have Tyler Cowen, the American economist, to talk to us about all things. How are you doing, Tyler? Good to see you again. Hello, how are you? I don't drink coffee.
I was about to ask. I have to ask every guest of the show.
Are you going to start? Are you going to start?
I've only had coffee twice in my life, both times in rural Ethiopia in a coffee ceremony. And it was amazing, but I thought this is the peak. I can't beat this.
Is that because you'd become too powerful or do you see it as a Faustian bargain?
I see people getting addicted to it. And if they can't get their morning coffee, they have headaches. I don't want to be there. Yeah, it does become a supply chain.
How often are you somewhere where you can't possibly get a coffee in the morning?
I don't know, it can't, but you have to go out and get it or go to some effort or you're in a hotel room and you make a crummy coffee there and then you don't really enjoy it. It's just simpler not to have that addiction, I think.
What's very interesting is that coffee, caffeine pills are incredibly economically efficient. It's like one cent for the equivalent of a cup of coffee if you buy them in bulk, and yet absolutely zero adoption. People love a cup of coffee even if it's a couple bucks. It's like a simple pleasure. It's a joy. People just can't stop paying for them.
Do you do anything in the morning, any type of ritual that you feel like you have to do to be yourself? He's like Celsius.
No.
I get high from mineral water, but if I don't have it, I'm fine. I'm not craving it. You're addicted. Okay.
Okay. Well, let's talk about artificial intelligence. How are you thinking about the latest debate around Kimi K3 open source AI? Where should we begin the discussion? And then I'm sure we can narrow down a bunch of different ways.
open source and is coming and is here, whether we like it or not. Of course, a lot of it will be from China. We should allow American competitors to proceed on an even footing. But basically, the attempt to outlaw it or ban it or use sanctions against it is going to fail miserably. Like what about multinationals? What about companies whose affiliates use open source? What about all the major U.S. companies that use open source Chinese products right now? I hope, I plead that the Trump administration gives up on this crusade. Sure. It cannot work.
Okay. So I want to push back on it cannot be banned because I, at first blush, I agree with you. Like it is software. It is something that can just be downloaded. You can download the weights and just have it. Anything that's replicable infinitely should just proliferate across the world. very quickly. But the fact that you need an NBL 72, you need a whole server rack, you need equipment and infrastructure, that acts as a point of leverage. I'm not saying that we should ban it. I'm just saying if you put me in charge of banning it, I think I would have an easier time banning open source AI than banning music distribution, for example.
What will you do when it's on device? How long is that from now? That's true. Why go down the path at all? Yeah, that's a good point.
What lessons are there from the automotive industry for this moment? just given the use of tariffs and how those have worked and haven't worked. And we were talking earlier about how Europe's approached the problem. You see BYDs all over Europe now. But at the same time, many of the manufacturers have been hurt most by just losing the Chinese market, right? Or not losing it, but having declining sales there because of local alternatives.
I think if Europe starts a major trade war with China, Europe will lose. This is a sad reflection on Europe, and it's a sad reflection on Europe that they can't just say, oh, we'll make fewer cars, we'll do five or six other great things that we're readily positioned to shift into. They're not really there. but simply putting up big tariffs isn't going to help them get there. It actually will postpone it.
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Chapters
5 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–5:25
2
Why does Tyler Cowen say banning Chinese open-source AI is impossible?
5:25–10:09
3
How could infrastructure and data centers influence national AI leverage?
10:09–11:45
4
What lessons from the auto trade apply to AI and tariffs?
11:45–16:09
5
Why does Tyler think Europe might become an AI powerhouse?
16:09–35:19
Speakers
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