The Bill Simmons Podcast
The Floundering Cavs, OKC-Boston Gut Checks, and Lottery Karma Power Rankings With Ryen Russillo
Mon, 12 May 2025
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to react to Game 4 between the Cavaliers and Pacers (2:15). Then, they talk Thunder-Nuggets Game 4 before breaking down the rest of the playoff games over the weekend (37:13). Finally, they go through the NBA Lottery Karma Rankings (01:47:06). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What went wrong for the Cleveland Cavaliers in Game 4 against the Pacers?
The Pacers, 25 assists in the first half, which is a number I did not know was attainable. And they absolutely ran Cleveland off the floor. And just when you thought it couldn't get worse, the third quarter started and Donovan Mitchell was nowhere to be seen because he apparently hurt his ankle. And the Cavs are now down 3-1, heading back to Cleveland for game five.
And the Pacers have completely, thoroughly, totally, and unequivocally outplayed them and have momentum. And this is now looking really dangerous, not just for this season, Rosillo, for the Cavaliers, but big picture. If you get wiped out like this by the Pacers, I'm not sure what you do heading into the summer. And I'm not even sure what the fixes are.
And maybe you look at it and you take a breath. And you go, all right, just wasn't our round, I guess. Let's run it back. We won 64 games. I find it hard to believe that's how it would play out because this is really bad how this has played out.
Yeah, the assist number at one point, it was 20-2 in team assists. And, you know, they're just flying around. I mean, this game is, like, overwhelming. I'm still a little in shock. Now, look, two things here. If Cleveland goes 82-0 and they lose this series, do they go 82-0 next year? No one's going to care. Because people are going to say there's this fundamental flaw with this team.
If you're Cleveland, you're going to probably run it back and you'll start to make excuses, which I think are worth bringing up. You have game two, we're missing Garland, we're missing Mobley, we're missing Hunter. And you still, if you inbound the basketball, you could win that game. Mitchell leaves. They weren't coming back in this game, even with Mitchell being out.
And you're like, hey, Garland was never really right. Now, I know I'm not sitting here suggesting that's the only reason you're here, but that's probably what they would do, wouldn't they?
I think you're right. But I'm also stunned that it was this much of an ass kicking today because usually game four is the... Like what we watched, which we're going to talk about later in the podcast, that OKC Denver game, where both teams kind of realize the stakes in the moment and... what needs to happen.
There's a level of intensity and there's a caring that usually exists in a game like this. And from Cleveland, from the get-go, you didn't see it. They weren't rotating on defense. They were just getting sliced and diced on that 3-2 zone. I think the thing that really stands out to me beyond just the talent and whether this might not be a great matchup for Cleveland, Indy's feisty.
They play with a real chip on their shoulder. They've done that all year. They love playing really good teams or teams with great players, like with the Lakers, the Celtics, like whoever it is. They really come out with their chest puffed out. They try to start shit. They're agitators. They have a real personality to them. And they kind of know who they are. They have a real identity.
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Chapter 2: How did the Indiana Pacers dominate the Cavaliers in the playoffs?
And then there was another play where... They were like, OK, I think we have this again. They're down so big you can't say, hey, now we're settled on defense. We know we're going to do. And then Nismith hits an end of a shot clock. So like everything that possibly could have worked out, I think, started with them having a much better plan and being way more comfortable with a 3-2 that even T.J.
McConnell admitted. And that screwed us up a little bit there in game three. So Cleveland thinks they have this answer. They have this defensive thing they can do, especially when it's those two guys. And yet they got destroyed in a bunch of different versions of it tonight.
Right. And the Pacers, I say this as the highest compliment I can give because I really love this team. But they look a little 2014 Spurs-ish at times with the way they play with each other and the ball moves around. With the added bonus that I think they're a really good transition team.
And Halliburton, you know, especially in a game like today, when there was one pass he threw, he was at midcourt, and he just threw this lob pass in the corner, almost like watching a quarterback throw a lead pass to a receiver down the sidelines. He's... casually threw it and he had a guy running down and caught it like in stride, stopped and had a look.
And I was like, this team sees angles that I don't normally see when I'm watching basketball. They really have fun playing with each other. They have all these guards. They pressure full court. I think they're a huge pain in the ass to play. I think you want to punch him in the face after like game two, which we saw today.
Matherin, you know, goads Hunter into a thing and then thinks he's the smart guy. And then they review it and they're like, no, actually you're getting tossed. But they just want to get under your skin. And I think they're annoying to play. It's no surprise to Celtics fans because this is a team that has come... Every time they played the Celtics, they brought it. They start shit.
They're really hard to play. They have a deep bench. They're really good at home. They get a good crowd. And I think they're for real. I thought they were for real all year. With that said, I'm shocked that Cleveland could look this bad in an important game. And I don't know whether Mitchell, it took so much for him those first couple of days with, you know, such a burden. I'm not sure.
I just think basketball is really hard now in 2025. You know, it's, it's when you have those games, like that game that he had when he was literally dead at the end of the game and you're doing everything, all the running and all the contact and the amount of times he was bouncing against people and finishing and I don't know.
I, I, I hate to shit on the old generations cause you know, I love all that basketball, but I just think it's harder. I think these games are harder. I think they're more physical, they're more taxing and it's a lot to ask from these dudes to put an offense on your back like that, you know?
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Chapter 3: What are the implications of the Cavaliers' playoff struggles for their future?
I don't know. I watched him toe to toe against Indiana and I just, it's not like I'm like, whoa, there's so much talent. It's not like the Celtics Knicks series where you're like, what's going on? The Celtics have a better team than the Knicks. How is this happening? I don't know if I feel that way when I'm watching Cavs Pacers.
I don't know how you could feel any other way after what we just sat through for two hours. So, you know, I didn't expect you to start sitting here and be like, you know who's awesome is Jared Allen. I just think that there was like 82 regular season games where this team was historically really good. Now, maybe that's another part of this conversation. Home, road. Do we care?
Doesn't matter anymore. 20-point leads.
Do we care about regular season at all?
Don't matter anymore. Your net rating doesn't matter anymore. Like, all of these things now, are we just going to decide? Yeah. that the things we've always believed in, none of it matters? Because, I mean, Cleveland is checking a lot of boxes being down 3-1 here.
It's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It was why I liked them as a possible finals team, because I felt like they had all the things I was looking for, except for I wasn't positive who the fifth guy is. But I like Struis. It's like, all right, if he's your fifth guy, he's going to have to make some big shots in the corner. I feel like he could maybe do that. Yeah.
there was three guys though you could throw into that conversation of like who would be now granted you probably wouldn't play jerome with garland and mitchell but um you know merrill's played a lot hunter is supposed to be better than this you know even dean wade who gets attacked defensively all the time because it's like oh i got him and then he holds up really well uh there's there's a lot of little pieces there that even if you're saying like hey i don't know who the fifth guy is
a lot of teams would take all of those options, but this is like, go ahead.
It's Pritchard. And then who are my other four? What are you talking about?
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Chapter 4: How did the Oklahoma City Thunder's defense impact Game 4 against the Denver Nuggets?
I think I'd lead with the Denver piece of it. I just think it's so incredible that they won two of those first three games. They stole game one. Just an outright theft. And then game three, which I think you and I both loved. Denver's just, you know, that was just the, we used to be the champs and we've been in a few of these rodeos and we kind of know what we're doing. It was one of those games.
The physicality of it was ridiculous. It was an awesome game. Friday was a hardwood classics NBA TV showing it in August, and I'll probably end up watching the fourth quarter in the OT. This game will never be seen again. Nobody will ever watch this game. And SGA, I think that they've disrupted him in all these different ways, much like OKC has disrupted Jokic. This is the best I've ever seen
a team defend his drives. Um, they're ready for his herky jerky stuff. They never give up on him because he loves doing that hockey move where he kind of drives through and he brings it back up. Then he cuts back in. They're always ready for that. Um, so when you think like they've only had six guys, uh, And one of them has this giant bandage on his shoulder and it's unclear how hurt he is.
Like, it's pretty impressive. But, you know, ultimately your season comes down to stuff like Russell Westbrook's going to be wide open in the corner and he's going to airball a three that you needed because... You had to have Russell Westbrook out there. As good as he's been as a bench guy. But that's kind of the difference when you get to this level. It's a couple of plays.
Look, I do think there are some real positives with Westbrook's minutes. Just for his comfort level. You know, there can be moments. Look, when they got down huge in game two, it may not have mattered. But it felt like he was like, all right, I can fix this. Maybe it's a compliment that he thinks that he can.
But, I mean, if you just run through the totals here now, I mean, we're talking about somebody who's at 23% and he's taking a lot of threes because they're there for him. By the way, the three-point shooting combined in the first half, 13.6%. Worst percentage in a half in a playoff game since 1998. The SGA stuff, had they lost, right?
If they're down 3-1, because I think it's worth maybe doing some of this stuff. Now, then it becomes a little bit of like, hey, this is what those other players remember. Windhorse was sharing this and then we both talked about it. It was like players do not fear this OKC team.
Yeah.
And then what were some of the like the default defensive things that other teams are doing? You saw Minnesota do it. One of those awesome regular season games against them. It's like, look, we're just going to force the ball out of his hands. We're going to trap him. We don't trust enough of these other guys because it's this SGA thing at the top.
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Chapter 5: What challenges are the Nuggets facing offensively in the series against the Thunder?
You know what, he's definitely kind of rooting against them. I think he is. My answer is yes, the more I'm thinking about it. You know, there's a youth parent phenomenon when your kid plays on a team and then somebody comes in and plays their position and you're supposed to be rooting for the team and you're rooting for everyone to do well.
But at the same time, you're like, all right, don't do too well in this spot. Like you just, it's human nature.
I don't know if I would want to hire a head coach that would be rooting for the team after he was fired by them. He can't answer it honestly, by the way. I have an OKC question for you. Yeah, OK.
Do you feel any differently about them than you did 10 days ago?
Maybe just a little because I thought they were really special.
And, you know, you look at the net rating, you look at the point differential on what they did this season. This wasn't just a really good. I mean, this team could have won 70 games if they wanted to. Uh, you know, I was looking back at it, you know, you go back to like some of these other regular seasons, right? Utah and 21. I mean, that was a team that projected is like a 59 win team.
So, all right, it's not 68, but they were number one in the league net rating plus nine points. that Phoenix team after they had lost. Remember how good they were in the regular season? But 64-win team, net rating was less for them. And so I'll admit, is OKC struggling? Because with the way this game started, you go, how is OKC not up 20 already?
And part of it was free throws, and obviously OKC couldn't hit any threes either. Yeah. And so, yeah, I'm allowing the down 3-1 thoughts to creep into my head back to what I kind of hinted at there is Windhorst saying players are not afraid of this OKC team. And I thought that that was dismissive.
I started thinking about the way players GM and how wrong they are about guys they actually want to play with. I started thinking about some of the results from the player polls. And I don't even know if all-star voting is even fair to do. But I'm like, there's so many times we have access the way players think. I'm like, how do you guys do this every night?
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Chapter 6: How are key players like Nikola Jokic and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander performing under playoff pressure?
No, there's probably one he got away with. It was funny because Legs was great. Legs was like, you know, he's used to playing with fouls. I think it was 525 when he had had the fifth one somewhere around there. And Legs goes, like I said, I would have taken him out. But the funny thing is, is Draymond, he actually can't be trusted. I don't mind Kerr going, well, look, this whole thing is...
completely new and without Steph now everybody's asked to like step step up like not just one role like two roles it feels like like hey you're gonna have a ball in your hands a lot more and you're gonna end with the decision and you're gonna have to shoot in spots that normally you'd be waiting for him to cut and by the way all those cuts where you guys are wide open all the time none of those are gonna be there so Draymond had the bad foul against Kawhi
He had the terrible foul against Memphis where he fouled out. He had a moment in the Houston series where he was in foul trouble. It's like, OK, do not give away a cheap one. He did it. And so the JD McDaniels drive, it's hard to tell Draymond like instinctively somebody who's in the conversation, the defensive player of the year to not try to find a way to come over and contest.
But he had no shot on that baseline drive. None whatsoever. Yeah, but I don't. Look, I don't feel bad for him. Put your hands up and don't touch him. Yeah. So he actually can't be trusted in foul trouble. And that all pales in comparison to his whole story and performance in Game 3. Because I thought Game 3 was so incredibly... Oh, excuse me, Game 2.
Game 2, when it looked like he wanted to get thrown out of the game.
I still think Golden State's not dead. But even if Curry was able to come back in game six, I don't know what version we're getting from him. You know, we're getting... He said earliest game five. And I would lean closer to six. It was fun, though. The Kaminga thing... I was on Kaminga Island. I went down there last night just to watch with my fingers crossed. Brought a bottle of wine. Oh, yeah.
How's it going down there? Brought some chips, some cheese, some crackers. Nobody was there. It was just me and my wife. You must not have any public services or anything. Nothing. There's no electricity. It is a weird one. And I, you know, as Kerr is one of my favorite coaches, as you know, and I still, I think it's just so weird.
that he punted on Kamingo when you watch some of the other guys in this team. And I get it from his mindset. Like he makes mistakes on defense. He doesn't fit into our flow of the up, but the guy is so athletically talented and unique with the roster they have. I still can't believe it as a play that we're, here's where I've landed though.
So I think some guys just aren't good playing 18 to 20 minutes a game. We've seen it a lot. Some guys, they just need to play big minutes. I actually think Pritchard's a little bit like this for the Celtics. I don't think Pritchard is a, let me come in for seven minutes each half guy. I think he needs bigger minutes. And he was a huge part of why they won yesterday.
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