As Trump stokes fear to leverage his power, Jen Psaki weighs the cost of obeying his demands against the reward of resisting. Congressman Jamie Raskin joins the show to help to break down the ways in which the courts, lawmakers and the American people are standing up to Trump. Later, Jen welcomes former Russian chess champion Garry Kasparov to reflect on the ways that Americans can prevent the country from backsliding into dictatorship. Jen also delves into RFK Jr.’s first press conference as HHS Secretary amid the deadly measles outbreak, in which Kennedy promoted claims about autism. Dr. Ashish Jha joins to discuss how the scientific community views Kennedy's agenda, and the damage it's doing to public health. Check out our social pages below:https://twitter.com/InsideWithPsakihttps://www.instagram.com/InsideWithPsaki/https://www.tiktok.com/@insidewithpsakihttps://www.msnbc.com/jen-psakihttps://bsky.app/profile/insidewithpsaki.msnbc.com
Chapter 1: What are the recent protests against Trump about?
OK, there is a lot of good stuff happening right now. We're seeing some real fight from Democratic lawmakers. That's good. We're seeing institutions stand up to Donald Trump. That's definitely good. We're seeing courts stop him in his tracks. That's great. And this weekend, we saw more massive protests all across the country.
But I actually wanted to start today by talking about fear, because fear is clearly a major driver of Trump's brand of politics, always has been. And how we all respond to that fear in this moment is going to determine a whole lot about the future of this country. Congressman Jamie Raskin summed it up pretty well in the New York Times this week.
Chapter 2: How does fear influence Trump's political strategy?
He said, there's a regime of fear that's been brought down on society. People need to see leaders and organizers standing up and speaking with authority against what's happening. Congressman Jamie Raskin summed it up very well there. He's here today. We have a lot to talk about. We're going to talk to him in just a moment.
But I also want to talk about a few other things, because this week we also saw at least one Republican acknowledge that fear too. I mean, during an event in Alaska this week, Senator Lisa Murkowski was asked what she would say to people who are afraid right now. And she was way more candid than I at least expected her to be.
What do you have to say to people who are afraid? Or who represent people who are afraid? We are all afraid. Okay. but we are We're in a time and a place where I don't know, I certainly have not been here before. And I'll tell you, I'm oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice because retaliation is real.
And that's not right. That's definitely not right. And retaliation is real. We've seen it. Those fears are real. We all know that Trump is vindictive, and he's betting he can gain a lot of leverage by creating even more fear. But at the same time, we've already seen that giving in to his demands gets you absolutely nowhere. I mean, when law firms cave, the demands don't stop.
Chapter 3: What are the consequences of capitulating to Trump's demands?
The firms that struck deals with Trump are now learning that the White House will effectively be choosing their pro bono clients for them. And when universities cave, the demands don't stop either. Columbia's deal with Trump might now include a court decree giving the White House control over the university's management. And when media outlets cave, the demands definitely don't stop.
I mean, Paramount entered into settlement talks with Trump over a frivolous lawsuit, and Trump still pushed the FCC to revoke CBS's broadcast license. Point is this, capitulating to Trump won't save you. You'll just be targeted again and again. Because when you give in to Trump's demands, you're just sending the message his threats and tactics work. You're not putting the episode behind you.
You're just inviting more demands. That's how mob bosses work. And remember, fear is what Donald Trump sees as his most effective tool. In some ways, it's his only tool. Fear of retribution and fear of him weaponizing the powers of his office is basically what he relies on. And he's obviously relying on it to use that office in ways we've never seen before.
I mean, he's trying to use the IRS of all places to target the nonprofit status of universities, which is the goal of making all nonprofit groups afraid of continuing the work that they are doing. He's trying to use immigration powers to make any non-citizen fear that he could change their legal status and force them out of the country at a moment's notice.
Trump is using his office to instill fear in every single way he can. And he's doing it in a way that he thinks, at least, is politically smart. He thinks it is. He's trying to lure his political opponents into making this about just defending elite institutions like Harvard or big city law firms nobody's ever heard of.
He's spreading lies about Camaro Abrego Garcia, daring people to defend him personally rather than defending the rights he's been denied. And on the issue of Garcia specifically, some Democrats have said it's a distraction from the economic calamity he's caused. Some have said Camargo Garcia is an imperfect hero for this issue. Maybe he is saying it's playing on Trump's turf on immigration.
And Republicans really do think this is their turf. They really do. I mean, just listen to how Stephen Miller described this issue.
President Trump, his policy is foreign terrorists that are here illegally get expelled from the country, which, by the way, is a 90-10 issue.
Sounds scary. I mean, 90-10? First of all, Stephen Miller needs a math class, I think we've all learned. But that's a big bluff from a little man and his sidekick. It's true that when pollsters are asked broad questions, when they ask broad questions to people out there about immigration and deportation broadly, Trump's policies do well.
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Chapter 4: How are lawmakers and courts pushing back against Trump?
And I'm glad that his extremism is being isolated, at least right now, on the Supreme Court and the majority of the court, including Kavanaugh, including Gorsuch, along with the chief justice and the three liberals and Amy Coney Barrett, are standing up for due process, which is the barrier between the freedoms and rights of the people and then arbitrary power by the government.
That's such a good reminder of due process and who it's supposed to be for, which I think they're completely missing, as well as the 7-2 decision, which is important to remind people of because that's significant. A lot happened with the Supreme Court this week. I mean, this is a different case than the
After the Supreme Court upheld the district's court order that the administration facilitate his return to the United States, the White House, particularly Stephen Miller, tried to spin it by falsely claiming that the Supreme Court's order upholding a lower court's ruling was unlawful. He claimed they won, too.
I'm curious if you think, because they're human beings, these justices, if you think that impacted the decision to do this order, the specificity, I should say, of this order overnight on Friday night.
Well, they must be experiencing some of the vertigo and disorientation of the rest of the country as the Trump administration tramples the rights and freedoms of the people, eviscerates due process and then lies about what's happening. So I think that's why you're seeing a movement of the justices to rally behind due process.
And the idea that everybody gets a fair hearing and you get to see what the evidence is against you. You get to be represented. You get to state your case. You get to explain why all of this is an administrative error, as it was, you know, in the Abreu Garcia case. But I loved your opening, Jen, because people are standing up everywhere. Right.
So in higher education, which was quaking before now, Harvard University, the oldest university, college in the country going back to 1636 stands up and says, no, you're not going to take over our university. You've got law firms like WilmerHale and Jenner and Block saying, no, we know why we're lawyers and we're going to stand up for the rule of law.
You've got millions of people who've already participated in protests across the country in every state in blue districts and red districts and purple districts saying, No, we are going to stand up for the Constitution, which is far bigger than any particular politician or administration.
No question about it. And this week was full of that, too, which is why we wanted to start the show that way. The other point, and I'd be interested in your thoughts on this, I made is that there are repercussions to not standing up.
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Chapter 5: What lessons can be learned from Senator Van Hollen's actions?
There was a very powerful statement made by John Palfrey from the MacArthur Foundation. These not-for-profits are going to have to stand up to defend us, for example, in the health care field, where the Trump regime is trying to pull the plug on lots of things, including vaccination, of course, but lots of different kinds of public health efforts.
And Mr. Palfrey is basically saying now is the time for the foundations to step into the breach, to use their resources to address all of these huge catastrophic problems being unleashed on our society.
That's such an interesting quote. I'm glad you brought it up. I mean, there were a lot of it's so important to talk about the inspiring things. I think there's a lot of dark things happening. One of the things that I thought was also very good this week was obviously Senator Van Hollen, your senator from your state going to El Salvador. He was able to meet with Abrego Garcia.
He also threatened before he went there. He threatened that they would be violating international—they were in violation of international law, which maybe that had an impact on Bukele and the government. Who knows?
But I'm curious, as you're watching that sort of activity and as we're seeing the Trump administration completely open and willing to send individuals, even American citizens potentially overseas, whether threatening or not threatening, but kind of— appealing to or focusing public messaging on the leaders who are doing this as part of what you think is effective here, part of what Van Hollen did.
Yeah, well, I was very proud of my friend Chris Van Hollen for what he did because he restored the humanity to this whole controversy that's going on. And he wasn't afraid or he felt some fear, but he moved forward and he showed everybody, yeah, we can get on an airplane and we can go and face the problem directly.
And then, of course, they've been lying about the trip and tried to stage some false margarita scene there. But look, President Bukele, who's declared himself a dictator and the other tyrants, dictators, autocrats of the world have to understand that the Trump administration is not going to last forever. We're going to restore strong democracy to America. And we will remember who stood up.
for democracy in America and who tried to drive us down towards dictatorship and autocracy. So I'm glad that Chris Van Hollen showed exactly where America is, and we're not afraid of any dictator anywhere.
Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you, as always, for joining me today. And coming up, some more ideas about pushing back on Donald Trump right now from someone with a very interesting perspective. Gary Kasparov, watch the threat of power-hungry dictators in Russia up close. He lived it, and he's coming up next. What's the best way to push back against a lawless president?
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Chapter 6: What is the significance of due process in the current political climate?
It never ends. It's either mob bosses or authoritarian dictators, similar, similar types. I mean, one of the things I know you've seen and experienced is kind of the blind following by other leaders of a dictator. Right. It becomes people who may feel privately opposed and then they follow it. And we've seen that, unfortunately, with far too many in the Republican Party.
There have been some cracks that I don't want to be naive, but I think we also have to look for this. I mean, Senator Lisa Murkowski started the show talking about this. One of the few remaining Republican Trump. critics, admitted, quote, we are all afraid, referring to whether Republicans can speak out against Trump.
Sometimes it feels like the GOP has fully surrendered, but sometimes there are cracks. But what do you see as meaningful cracks? Are there meaningful cracks forming against Trump within the party that has mainly blindly supported him?
No, I don't see any cracks because so far Trump got everything he wanted. They pushed the button. No matter what they say privately, they haven't closed doors. They keep pushing the buttons. And that's why, you know, speaking about the cracks is more of the wishful thinking. First of all, let me tell you, there are no fearless people. We all have fears.
The difference is how we can handle these fears. Yes, and you can see the Republicans' fear of Donald Trump and Elon Musk who are threatening them with primaries. Did Elon Musk tell them publicly that he would raise $10 million against any Republican senator who would dare vote against Trump's nominees? He did. It's abuse of power. It's blackmail in its purest, purest form.
So I think it's very important to recognize that unless we put equal pressure, even more pressure on GOP senators and members of the House, nothing will happen, at least in the nearest future. I think we have to make sure that they own their decisions. So in every district, in every state where you have a competitive race next year, we have to say that Trump's tariffs is not just Trump's tariffs.
They are Ernst's tariffs in Iowa. They're Cornyn tariffs in Texas. They are Chile's tariffs in North Carolina. And in every district, Republicans should know they will own it. And you have to start doing it now. They should recognize that, yes, Trump and Musk are on one side, but eventually you have to face voters.
Because while, you know, I agree with Jamie Ruskin about strength of American democracy and Trump is not going to last forever, again, don't take it for granted. They will try to control the election process in 2026, because there's one simple question that I think many Americans are afraid to ask.
Do you believe that Pam Bondi and Kash Patel will follow constitutional Trump orders when the push comes to Seoul?
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Chapter 7: How can Americans prevent backsliding into dictatorship?
So first of all, Jen, thanks for having me here. You know, it's incredibly frustrating watching the secretary talk about autism. The only time he ever has talked about autism in the past has been when he's been linking it to the sort of debunked theory of vaccines causing it. Here's what we know. We know that the rates of diagnosis have gone up very, very substantially since the 1980s.
We think a lot of that is because we've gotten better at diagnosing children with autism. And that's a good thing, by the way. I think there were a lot of kids who were underdiagnosed in the past. None of us really know what exactly is causing or causes autism. I think many of us believe it might be a genetic environmental interaction of some kind. But here's the bottom line.
Billions of dollars have been spent on this. People are studying this. There is serious scientific work being done on this. And his sort of dismissive approach to this is not going to help any kids with autism. And I think a lot of it is actually quite offensive.
No question about it. I mean, you are obviously very familiar with the pace of medical research, too, and scientific research. He's saying he's going to know the cause of autism by September. I mean, I'm concerned that that means he knows what he wants the outcome to be. But what do you think? And what are your concerns about that timeline?
Yeah, so literally there are thousands of people working on this and have been working on it for decades. Very, very smart scientists, clinicians. The idea that there's some magic answer that's out there and the secretary is going to find it by September is absurd. And it leads one to the conclusion that you're drawing, which is he already knows the answer. He's made up his mind.
This is not going to be a scientific inquiry. And the bottom line is when you distract people with wrong answers, you don't do anything in terms of helping kids with autism. That's the biggest tragedy here.
I want to ask you about measles. This is the question I think so many parents, my kids are little, so many people watching have grandkids and little kids. I mean, the CDC this week confirmed that cases rose to a total of 800 across 24 states in the U.S. The first case in Virginia was reported, I believe, yesterday.
The state where I live, neighboring countries like Canada and Mexico are also seeing outbreaks. I know there's been ups and downs with this before, but can you put into perspective for us how big of a deal the uptick in cases is? And what would be the message, if you were still in the White House, that people would need to hear? You can be their public health doctor right now.
Yeah, so first of all, we are now already at the second worst outbreak of this century, of the last 25 years, and we're still in April. We are going to surpass the worst year, which is 2019, probably in the next month or two. This is going to end up becoming the biggest outbreak of the last 25 years. This is not random. It's not coincidental.
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