Jen Psaki outlines the recent pushback against Donald Trump and Elon Musk from world leaders and even some of his own appointees. She is joined by Julia Ioffe of Puck News and Representative Eugene Vindman to discuss Trump's continued embrace of Putin as he pushes false claims that Ukraine started the war with Russia. Next, Jen is joined by NBC News Justice Correspondent Ken Dilanian and conservative attorney George Conway to discuss the implications of Trump appointing MAGA podcaster Dan Bongino as deputy FBI director. Then, Rep. Andy Kim joins Jen to discuss the national security concerns posed by Elon Musk's plan to use AI to assess responses by federal workers told to justify their jobs. Later, Jen is joined by Lieutenant General Mark Hertling to discuss Trump's purge of top generals and lawyers in the military, and what it reveals about his intentions. Finally, Jen shares a clip of her interview with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker from the newest episode of her podcast "The Blueprint with Jen Psaki".Check out our social pages below:https://twitter.com/InsideWithPsakihttps://www.instagram.com/InsideWithPsaki/https://www.tiktok.com/@insidewithpsakihttps://www.msnbc.com/jen-psakihttps://bsky.app/profile/insidewithpsaki.msnbc.com
Chapter 1: What pushback is the Trump administration facing?
Okay. I know Joy just ended her show by thanking her team, which is the most authentically Joy thing to do, I can tell you. And they are also a very incredible team. But I want to start this show tonight by thanking her. I want to thank her because she's done amazing work here. She does tell stories no one tells. She does that fearlessly on her show. but also for the person that she is.
And even before I met Joy Reid, and I didn't meet her until I started working her, I felt like I kind of knew her. I don't know if you relate to this. I felt like she was kind of talking directly to me through the screen. I know many of you watching at home know exactly what I mean. And then when I got here, she became my office neighbor, literally two doors down.
And she is the best office neighbor I could have asked for. I mean, she's somebody whose mind and her talent and her fierceness I admire so much. But she's also someone who I kind of just love running into in the hallway or chatting with on the set during specials, as my colleagues were just talking about, about anything, what's happening in the world, what's going on in her life.
And I'm going to miss all of that. And so thank you to Joy Reid. I just wanted to start there. In the meantime, I watched her show, as many of you probably did. And I want to start. I also want to do what I know she wants us to do, which is to start fearlessly in talking about what's in the news and not holding back. And that's what we always intend to do here, too, just like she does.
I do want to start tonight with the fast approaching deadline for federal workers to respond to what was a pretty wild Saturday email from unelected billionaire Elon Musk. I mean, according to Musk, who I will also note has literally absolutely zero authority to enforce this, all federal workers had until midnight tonight to reply to an email listing five things they accomplished last week.
Now, he said if they don't respond, they lose their jobs. Again, that's all according to an unelected billionaire who thought bringing a chainsaw on stage of CPAC last week was the right choice. That's what he with sunglasses on. But then today, Musk's bizarre email threat was backed up by none other than Donald Trump, who, of course, offered up this super clear, super helpful guidance.
Quote, if you don't answer, you're sort of semi-fired. or you're fired, semi-fired or fired. I'm sure that alleviated all of the confusion being felt by millions of federal employees that was brewing for the last couple of days. Now, today, the Office of Personnel Management came out and said that responding to this email is voluntary and workers will not lose their jobs if they don't respond.
But remember, all weekend, millions of federal workers were faced with this kind of bizarre choice. I mean, do they respond and risk must doing who knows what with the information, perhaps sending it through an AI system is one of the things that's been reported? Or do they not respond and risk losing their jobs?
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Chapter 2: How is Elon Musk's email threatening federal workers?
Now, here's where it gets kind of a little interesting, because even before OPM issued their guidance that responding was voluntary, as I just said, some what I would consider unlikely characters actually pushed back. So the director of national intelligence and definitely a Trump devotee, Tulsi Gabbard, ordered all intelligence community officers not to respond.
The Department of Defense, led by Trump's buddy Pete Hegseth, yes, that guy, told employees to ignore the email. An FBI director, QAnon supporter, and maybe the most dedicated Trump loyalist of the whole posse, Kash Patel, told employees at the FBI not to respond also. Now remember, this is a guy, Kash Patel, who literally wrote a children's book series portraying Trump as a king.
But this time, he's telling the people at the agency he now leads not to follow the order. And Elon Musk doesn't appear to be taking this too well. It seems to be a little bit under that guy's skin. I mean, he tweeted in the last hour that the email request was utterly trivial. Then he tweeted that it was subject to the discretion of the president. Workers will be given another chance.
And that failure to respond a second time will then result in termination. So he clearly didn't love the pushback he got from those agency heads. He probably didn't plan on it. And now it's a bit of cleanup over there on ILX. But let me be clear, those Trump officials who defied Musk, I'm not suggesting in any way, shape, or form they deserve a Profile in Courage award.
That's not what I'm saying here. Their pushback here is not of a desire to do what's right. This is clearly driven by what they would consider their own self-interest. I mean, it's not within the self-interest of Gabbard or Patel to blindly follow Musk and to open themselves up to even further mutiny within the agencies they were just confirmed to lead.
It's not in the personal self-interest of Gabbard and Patel to risk classified information or information about sensitive investigations they now oversee. Going to a group of 20-something tech pros who may put it through an AI system. So we know why they're pushing back. I think those are some of the reasons. And Lord knows there are a lot of other things that they should be pushing back on more.
There's no question about that. But that doesn't change the fact that they are still pushing back a little bit on something. And we're seeing something similar play out internationally.
I mean, this morning, three years to the day that Russia launched their all-out assault on Ukraine, the United States voted against a UN resolution condemning Russian aggression and calling for an immediate withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine. That is a crazy thing that that is how they voted. That vote was in line with countries like North Korea and Belarus, everyone.
I mean, not exactly leaders in defense of democracy or morality or many things. But that vote is also totally in line with what we're seeing play out publicly from Trump and members of his administration. I mean, just over the past few days, Trump called Ukrainian President Zelensky a dictator without elections who should have never started the war in his own country.
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Chapter 3: What are the implications of Trump's military purges?
to end the war in ukraine of course it's not negotiations it's not the art of the deal to just give away the store to one side and then negotiations anybody could do that and uh president biden could have done that and prevented the war as well but the reason you're seeing that pushback is the u.s isn't leading that camp anymore the u.s is with the bad guys now the u.s is with the fascists now and so these are the people who are tasked to lead the free world because we sure as hell are not doing it anymore
I mentioned, which is such—we're not sitting at the lead of the table anymore, which is a real change. I mean, that is not a political change. Let me ask you, Congressman—I mean, you're a Ukrainian-American, of course, and you've spoken out about all of these issues. I mean, the defense secretary refused to say over the weekend that Russia started the war. That is ludicrous and crazy.
It's something that is a Russian-Kremlin talking point. It's something that Putin would probably say. There is some pushback. We're stating the facts here. How impactful is it that you have the president of the United States, people in his cabinet, some of them, some of these people like Elon Musk oversee massive platforms.
What is the impact of that type of message and disinformation that they're spreading?
Well, you got to remember that the sole reason all of these people are in his cabinet, it's not because they're competent, capable, they have experience, they've never managed anything. It's loyalty. It's blind loyalty. They would never be selected as manager of a McDonald's as opposed to a secretary of defense. So I think it's laughable. And so what they're doing is they know that they're
Their job depends on pleasing their boss. There's only one person that they actually have to listen to and abide. And it's Donald Trump. And it's shameful. It's not in accordance with our values. And it's a hard turn towards dictatorships and autocracies away from what this country has always stood for.
There's no question. I mean, Julie, let me ask you a similar question, because I feel like, again, we know what the facts are and it feels very obvious. These are the facts. Russia started the war. But you've covered and you've I mean, this spread of disinformation happens here in the United States. It happens globally.
Now you have the leader of the free world basically touting inaccurate information about this war. I mean, what is the impact and what can people even do to push back?
Well, I mean, this is a president who. I mean, things that seem obvious to us, right? January 6th was an attack on democracy, an attack on the Capitol. It was the most live-streamed, televised, photographed event that probably any of us have seen, right? Everybody was there with their cameras out. Everybody was saying, I'm doing this. I'm attacking the Capitol. And he says, no, they were peaceful.
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Chapter 4: How do world leaders respond to Trump's policies?
I think anybody who has studied history, who has studied these types of leaders, knows that you don't feed scalps to the tiger in order to get him to stop. Like, it's not going to sate his appetite for scalps. He just wants more scalps. He wants more scalps. And Stalin could have told you this about Hitler. He signed a non-aggression pact with him in 1939. And...
Hitler invaded two years later because you don't make deals with these kinds of guys. These deals don't last long. They're not worth the paper they're written on.
Let me ask you because you wrote this very thoughtful piece about the firing of generals and the purging of people in the military. One of the challenges right now is there's so many stories. It's almost like things don't get enough attention. That's why we're trying to talk about a lot of these things.
There's history here in terms of what the impact is of firing qualified people in the military and filling it with political loyalists, as Julia said. Tell me what you think and what are you most worried about here?
Well, look, it's simple. He fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff because he is a black man. He fired the director of naval operations because she was a woman. He also, Hegseth also fired his senior military aide, a lieutenant general who was a woman.
So what they're trying to do is they're trying to purge folks that have quality, that have achieved their positions through decades of hard work, experience, every position. And they're replacing them with yes men and folks that will not challenge them. And the firing of the lawyers, the head lawyers, is actually in some ways the most disturbing thing because those lawyers are tasked with
interpreting the Constitution and letting their commanders, letting the civilian and military leaders know that these are the lawful parameters, these are constitutional parameters, and you can't cross this line. And he's eliminated that. And so who is he going to bring in behind him? That's why the question I asked was, it's not a request, may I please have this information?
We have a role in Congress, an oversight role, and I am demanding that they provide answers to Why they fired qualified, capable individuals that are serving in apolitical roles. And what are their criteria for hiring the replacements? That's what I want to know.
Congressman Vindman, Julia Yaffe, this is such an important piece. I'm going to talk about the Jags, as you referenced a little bit later. I'm going to talk to General Hertling about it, too. And it's a story I hope people pay close attention to. So, you know, and it's so important to understand what they do. Coming up, not one but two far right conspiracy theorists are now in charge of the FBI.
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Chapter 5: What concerns arise with Dan Bongino as deputy FBI director?
Chapter 6: How does disinformation affect the perception of the Ukraine war?
Let me ask you, Ken, I mean, you are so well sourced within the FBI. I assume, but you tell me, that after Kash Patel was nominated and confirmed, there was this hope that they'd have somebody who was one of their own, right? As the deputy, that who could run things and help maybe serve as a protective layer. What has the reaction been?
It's been shock and horror because you're absolutely right. They thought, look, As controversial as Kash Patel is, if you put a career agent in there as the deputy, then he can explain, no, sir, that's illegal. We can't do it that way. We have to follow the rules and the law. Now you have two bomb-throwing MAGA outsiders. And look, here are some of the things that Dan Bongino has said.
Dan Bongino said that the FBI lied a few months ago when they said, We don't know who the suspect is that planted the bombs outside the RNC and the DNC the day before January 6th. They had this whole campaign seeking information from the public. Dan Bongino went on a podcast and said, oh, that's wrong. They know who did it. It's a conspiracy. Now he's going inside to run the place.
And that's what I'm hearing today is just horrifying people who work there.
I mean, I can't some of these people have been there for decades. Let me ask you, George, one of the questions I get asked a lot. I mean, just when you're in a train station, it's like, what are the guardrails? What can be done to stop this?
I mean, I think there are a lot of people who might be on a political enemies list who might be targeted just who are concerned about what they could do with their power. What are the legal guardrails here to stop the two of them from the legal guardrail ultimately would be the courts.
Yeah, because if they want to bring power. Punitive prosecutions against people, they still have to prove crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. But at the end of the day, in terms of just the mismanagement of the agency, I mean, 38,000 people work for this agency and the two people at the top don't know anything about how it works.
And they're also they've lost a number of people at the top levels already. So it's just I don't know what the remedy is other than other than where we're stuck with them. And it's not it's not great.
I would say one thing, though. Another guardrail are the people that work there that will follow the rules and the law. This is a rule based organization. They're not going to just start investigating people without predication. They will quit many of them before they do that. And so we'll find out about it.
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Chapter 7: What are the potential consequences of loyalty over competence in the FBI?
Shoot the protesters. So, yeah, we know how Trump sees the military. But one major obstacle to the military doing things that are illegal actually exists inside the military in the form of the Judge Advocates General. And I've been talking about this with a couple of my guests tonight, or JAGs, as they're often called. It's their job to ensure that orders given and orders received are lawful.
I mean, it's one thing to fire an officer who he believes won't do the job the right way. But it's another thing entirely to remove lawyers who give detailed, thoughtful advice to leaders about what is or isn't legal. So the point is, if you want to do things that are illegal, they are some of the people you would get rid of.
And that's exactly what Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth did on Friday, firing three top jags at the Army, Navy, and Air Force. Now, normally we wouldn't be able to tell you for sure that's why he did it, but I think we all know these are definitely not normal times. And Pete Hegseth admitted why he did it on live television.
Ultimately, we want lawyers who give sound constitutional advice and don't exist to attempt to be roadblocks to anything, anything that happens in their spots.
Again, if using the military for illegal stuff is your goal, then, yeah, I mean, I guess the people who ensure you follow the law are roadblocks. And needless to say, this purge at the Pentagon has raised alarms among some of the nation's most decorated former military brass. Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is one of them.
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Chapter 8: How can legal guardrails limit power abuse in the FBI?
He's the former commanding general of the United States Army Europe, and he joins me next. President Trump's purge of top Pentagon officials included the second black chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the first female chief of naval operations. And that isn't just shocking. It also, all of it, this purge, could endanger our national security. The former commanding general of the U.S.
Army in Europe, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, writes this in a new piece for The Bulwark, quote, political interference in military leadership, especially dismissing generals and admirals based on ideological loyalty rather than competence, has repeatedly led to disastrous consequences. And retired Lieutenant General Mark Kirtling joins me now. General Lurgan, it's great to see you.
Thank you so much for joining me. I just want to start. I read your piece. It's an excellent piece. But I just want to start by asking about the point about history, because this is not the first time in any country that generals have been purged for loyalty reasons or to try to replace them for political reasons.
What should we understand about what the impact has been and what the impact could be here?
Well, when you reach the rank of three and four star, Jen, you actually sign a piece of paper before you go into the job that you're promoted to that say you serve at the pleasure of the president. And, you know, at any given time, they can take that piece of paper out and say, OK, you no longer see the pleasure of the president. So be gone.
Generals and admirals have been relieved, as you just said, for poor performance, acts of misconduct, or a lack of trust by their supervisor, the president. But I can't recall any general officer in our history who's been relieved for their political ideology, as most of them don't advertise it. You know, we go into all jobs that we have in the military as nonpartisan.
We serve not just our commander in chief, but we also serve the people of our country. You know, we take our nation's sons and daughters in our commands and sometimes go to war with them. So we have two audiences we're playing to, not just our bosses, but also the citizens of the United States.
I talked a little bit in the last block about the JAGs and the firing of these three JAGs by the Secretary of Defense. And this is a term people may have heard of, but they may not know exactly what it is and what they do. Help us understand or explain to people the importance of these jobs.
Well, the TJA, first of all, is the judge advocate general of each service. So there's one of them. It's usually either a one-star or a two-star general. There are also staff judge advocates, SJAs. They work at every single command. I had a staff SJA from brigade command to the division command to usurer command, but there's only one TJA in the Army, Navy, and Air Force.
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