We are here: Trump is openly defying the Supreme Court while sitting side-by-side with a Latin American strongman who openly mocked our judicial system from inside the Oval Office. Trump so badly wants his one-man rule and Republicans keep helping him, while corporate America keeps trying to get on his good side. Meanwhile, the intimidation is chilling free speech on college campuses and within immigrant communities. Bill Kristol joins Tim Miller. show notes JVL's emergency Triad from Sunday JVL's latest Triad The latest Focus Group on the fighting mood among Dem voters
Chapter 1: Who are the hosts and guests of this episode?
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Thank you to JVL for sitting in on Friday. How great is David from? Made it easy on him. Congrats also to my brother from another mother, Rory McIlroy, on the Masters win. Big ups to listeners Josh and Jason for the little bonus hospitality at Coachella. And with that, I think there's only bad news left to cover.
So I'm going to bring in Bulwark Editor-at-Large Bill Kristol, as is our habit on Mondays. How are you doing, Bill? I'm doing fine. How are you? How was Coachella? It was amazing. It was just so marvelous. Everyone was happy. Gaga was just completely on another level from all the other acts, but we saw a lot of good ones. Amare, Viagra Boys.
I think I would have trouble dealing with all that happiness, but you are a better person than I, and you can turn off the... the world around us and enjoy the happiness for a weekend.
I completely turned it off. The only time my happiness bubble has popped was when Sam Stein was texting me about work stuff or one of the artists, dark side, great artists, but did like a three minute, you know, anti-Trump rant. And I'm like, you know, 30 seconds is sufficient. You know, once you get into the minute for a little much for me, we're trying to escape our dark reality.
Speaking of our dark reality, I guess we need to start in El Salvador. which David Frum repeatedly called our only ally on the Friday pod, to my amusement. Close, close enough to true. So we've got President Bukele in D.C. today. I guess we'll be meeting with Trump. The latest in the legal situation with Kilmar Abrego-Garcia.
That's the father in Maryland who was wrongfully sent to Sakat in El Salvador. On Sunday, the government stonewalled the district court judge, filing an update saying it had no updates on And in a separate filing challenge, the Supreme Court's 9-0 order to facilitate Abrego-Garcia's return and added that the details of the deal with Bukele are classified.
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Chapter 2: What is the controversy surrounding Kilmar Abrego-Garcia's detention?
You know, potentially a big legal showdown here. We'll see kind of what happens with Bukele. But JVL has a pretty alarmist triad, which, you know, I know tickles both of our funny bones. But what do you make of it at The Biggest Picture?
It's terrible. It's terrible what's happened. It's terrible that the government of the United States and the Trump administration are, I guess, defending what's happened or at least professing to be incapable of fixing what's happened or certainly not trying at all hard. even appearing to try hard to fix what's happened. That part, I really can't quite believe. I can believe, what am I saying?
But that part is shocking, you know, in a sense. I mean, of course, what's happened is the most shocking thing. But, you know, not even sort of going through the motions of trying to fix what they have acknowledged is an injustice or wrong, which, of course, they could fix in two minutes. I don't think Kelly's not going to say no to Trump if he says it's important to get him back and, you know.
We'll do it in some way to save space for you if you want. But anyway, it's so that's not a bug. That's a feature, right? The unwillingness to rectify the injustice.
Yeah. Oh, no, for sure. And I think. there is kind of a typical political scandal element to this. And obviously Trump is atypical in so many ways, but they've gotten just way out ahead of themselves with their rhetoric about, you know, like this guy is a, you know, MS-13 member, you know, everyone down there is a violent, dangerous criminal. Like once you kind of do that, it makes it harder to
just admit wrong and like you see this from all kinds of politicians right like you get in trouble and then it's harder to admit you keep digging the hole deeper but it's like once they do then doesn't that open the door and god willing it would to like for the other you know people who are there that may be wrongfully it's just this just happens to be the only guy they've admitted was it was a mistake right and i mean i think this is kind of dark but i they don't mind having a little bit of fear out there that it could happen to other people who are not
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Chapter 3: How is the Trump administration handling the Kilmar Abrego-Garcia case?
criminals and not gang members. And they like it with the immigrants. Clearly, they like that. They think it'll lead to self-deportation or at least, well, self-deportation or not coming here in the first place or leaving or, I don't know, hiding more or something like that. Not causing trouble, certainly. It's like with the campus stuff, right?
I mean, this stuff does have a deterrent and chilling effect. And not just on immigrants, incidentally. That part of it is what I find, that is classic authoritarian dictatorship beyond the kind of, oh, we're on the way towards authoritarianism. You want some cases that are obviously unjust.
to really put the fear of God into everyone that can't do anything that even looks problematic from the point of view of the government. And that seems to be where we are.
And this, I think, is just a reasonable fear, particularly for people that are here on visas, anybody whose status is not permanent. residency, you know, or citizen, obviously, I don't think I would advise somebody, you know, in that shoes to like come or stay in the country because the risks are so great.
And when I was at an email from a, from a listener just this morning, I was reading where his son's roommate, you know, basically had to self-deport who had done nothing, you know, but like got a letter, was at college here, was from the Middle East, you know, decided it was just better to just go back. And like, that seems like a rational choice, right? In this case, he got a letter.
But even if you didn't, right? They want that fear. And I don't think it's irrational at this point. Right.
At least he got the letter, which is more than the young woman at Tufts did. And she just got seized on the street. I mean, and again, they're there, which that seems very clearly to be.
unjustified and unwarranted and there too they're they're doing nothing to remedy the error so well the tough situation the post had a story over the weekend that the state department you know some career in the state department had determined that there was no evidence she engaged in and again and It would not be illegal to have a whatever. I wouldn't support having a pro-Hamas flag.
It wouldn't be illegal, but there was no actual evidence that she engaged in any anti-Semitic activities or made public statements supporting a terrorist organization. That was like the State Department's own internal assessment.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of President Bukele's stance on returning Kilmar Abrego-Garcia?
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uncomplicate the process with trust and will protect what matters most in minutes at trust and will.com slash bulwark and get 20 off that's 20 off at trust and will.com slash bulwark just on the legal part of this because jvl kind of wrote about basically the three doors that we're going to come through here with Bukele in the U.S.
One is basically, he says, you know, I've decided to, in my own graciousness, give back Kilmar Garcia, and we're not going to change anything else about our program. there is the option of, well, you know, he's going to kick the can. He's got to wait and see what, you know, what more comes down the pike.
Or there is the option that he just says, no, like this person is a danger to El Salvador and I'm going to keep them there. All right. And actually, we might have a little bit of clarity on which dark door we're going through, because as we are taping here, the press conference is happening live in the Oval Office with Bukele and Trump.
And here is what Bukele just said about whether he's planning on returning Kilmar Abrego-Garcia.
Can President Bukele weigh in on this? Do you plan to return him?
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Chapter 5: How does the Supreme Court ruling affect the deportation case?
Chapter 6: What are the concerns regarding immigration enforcement and its impact on free speech?
to really put the fear of God into everyone that can't do anything that even looks problematic from the point of view of the government. And that seems to be where we are.
And this, I think, is just a reasonable fear, particularly for people that are here on visas, anybody whose status is not permanent. residency, you know, or citizen, obviously, I don't think I would advise somebody, you know, in that shoes to like come or stay in the country because the risks are so great.
And when I was at an email from a, from a listener just this morning, I was reading where his son's roommate, you know, basically had to self-deport who had done nothing, you know, but like got a letter, was at college here, was from the Middle East, you know, decided it was just better to just go back. And like, that seems like a rational choice, right? In this case, he got a letter.
But even if you didn't, right? They want that fear. And I don't think it's irrational at this point. Right.
At least he got the letter, which is more than the young woman at Tufts did. And she just got seized on the street. I mean, and again, they're there, which that seems very clearly to be.
unjustified and unwarranted and there too they're they're doing nothing to remedy the error so well the tough situation the post had a story over the weekend that the state department you know some career in the state department had determined that there was no evidence she engaged in and again and It would not be illegal to have a whatever. I wouldn't support having a pro-Hamas flag.
It wouldn't be illegal, but there was no actual evidence that she engaged in any anti-Semitic activities or made public statements supporting a terrorist organization. That was like the State Department's own internal assessment.
And it may be that legally it's just, you know, immigrants don't have many rights, honestly, and their visas can be revoked. And, you know, legally that could be done somewhat arbitrarily and you don't have to defend it. I'm not sure if this went to court. She would win in that respect, though. Maybe she would. I don't know.
Maybe the card provisions are unconstitutional in terms of their arbitrariness. But if I'm reading the card provisions correctly, but having said all that.
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Chapter 7: What does Bill Kristol say about the role of enablers in the Trump administration's actions?
I mean, is that now totally out of the realm of possibility that we and that we would have deported people, some of whom at least are none of whom deserves to be deported to death? I wouldn't say in a prison without any trial or hearing or anything at all. And some of whom are just flat out innocent of what they're sort of accused of. Yeah.
I mean, no, we're already there. And look, you have a Latin American strongman in the White House mocking our judicial system, basically. Just like mocking the country, doing it sitting next to the president with the full support of the president. The president as a sponsor, really, in a lot of ways.
And discussing going further and talking about how more people are going to have to be put in his shoes.
jail in el salvador so someone resigned from the administration because of this someone from the council's office someone from doj someone from the state department well they put that one lawyer on leave so we got one government lawyer is on leave over this you know he's on the right side he's on the side of telling the truth to the court i mean yeah marco rubio's fine with this though right
They have succeeded, I think, in making this, what Aaron, right, that Melnick said at the very beginning, when you and I both, I think, did conversations with them at various times, the immigration expert. They want to make America a hostile place to immigrants. They want people not to want to come here. And they've certainly done that. And they've also made it so people don't want to stay here.
The damage that does to us as a country, and not just in sort of obvious economic ways, but I think in terms of what the the meaning of the country, not to sound too sappy or something, but the sort of the spirit of the country, what the meaning of America is. I mean, it's pretty terrible.
It's not too sappy for me. My childish love of the beauty of the American experiment has been tarnished, but it's definitely true. It was noteworthy, I guess, that the Supreme Court was 9-0 on this. And so I think that's what really makes the showdown, so to speak, most stark. Because if they don't respond to that, we're getting into an even darker place.
Quick shout out to Chris Van Hollen, Senator from Maryland, who has requested a meeting with Bukele and says that if Kilmar Garcia is not home by midweek, he's going to travel to El Salvador to check on his condition and discuss his release. So glad that some Democrats are standing up. One last thing, JVL, on this kind of point before we move on to some other cheery topics.
JVL kind of had a provocative lead that I think may be a little over provocative for my taste, but it's something worth discussing, which is if you're Chris Krebs right now, are you starting to wonder whether or not you should leave the country? JVL is more of the view that if Garcia is not returned this week, then, you know, people that have been targeted by directly by this administration are
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Chapter 8: How is Trump’s criticism of the media connected to the broader political climate?
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Speaking of Trump popping off, he also did a bleat over the weekend about 60 Minutes, how they should lose their license, which is kind of repetitive of what he's been saying, as mentioned already. I think I was watching Megan Thee Stallion during 60 Minutes last night, so I haven't actually seen the show to see what upset him. But this was the part I wanted to focus on.
Hopefully, FCC Commissioner Brendan Carr gives them the maximum punishment for So, again, it's similar to the Krebs situation. This isn't an executive order, but it is directing a federal agency to punish a political foe and a media outlet at that.
Yeah, and Carr has said things that are totally out of whack from any FCC chairman of either party in terms of his willingness to go after people.
politically i don't know quite how the agency fcc works but i think he has a lot of power as chairman even if they don't appoint all the members trump can't appoint all the members so the threat isn't just trump won't like you or trump won't give cbs good access to the white house the threat is you know fines and lifting your license i suppose conceivably even greater criminal penalties against people and he mentions the person he wants to do this and there's carr
Thinking, yeah, if I want to go and get ahead in Trump world, I guess I need to move pretty aggressively on this. I used to, I would have thought of maybe the first term, car will just let it drop, you know, which is what kind of the decent, semi-decent people did in the first Trump administration when orders to do this kinds of thing.
Like, all right, boss, we're right on that. We're right on that. We're reviewing it, you know. I'm hoping it goes away. But this time one can't count on that at all, of course, right? No, of course not. Also wanted to, you know, we got to do a daily tariff update, I guess. We're going to do much more on the economic stuff tomorrow. But this jumped out at me. Since last Wednesday.
This has been the tariff regime in the country. It began with the universal reciprocal tariffs, quote-unquote, and then he backed down to the 10% for everybody and then upping the Chinese to 50. Over the course of the next few days, he upped that to 90, 104, 125, and then 145 for the Chinese tariffs. Then electronics were exempted.
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