The Chuck ToddCast
A Warning For American Democracy: How Trump Is Following Putin's Corruption Blueprint
Wed, 30 Apr 2025
Chuck Todd begins the show with a candid assessment of President Trump's troubled first 100 days, suggesting that Trump's authoritarian tendencies may stem more from laziness than deliberate strategy. He questions what it would take for Trump to improve his approval ratings, noting that someone truly interested in maintaining power would be working harder to communicate with non-supporters.Then he’s joined by Dr. Jodi Vittori, an expert on kleptocracy – rule by thieves. Dr. Vittori explains why functioning democracies and kleptocracies cannot coexist, offering Russia as the clearest example while suggesting Hungary represents a more subtle version. She warns that America's potential kleptocracy would have unique characteristics, with the tariff exemption process potentially serving as a gateway. The discussion explores how the Constitution originally included anti-corruption measures, how the Supreme Court has eroded these protections, and specific warning signs of kleptocratic governance. Dr. Vittori highlights how crypto enables corruption, why state and local governments are particularly vulnerable, and offers concrete reforms to protect democratic institutions. Their conversation concludes with the provocative question of whether Trump initiated America's slide toward kleptocracy or simply accelerated an existing trend.The episode wraps with "Ask Chuck," tackling listener questions about whether politicians should face legal consequences for lying to the public, what it would take to end gerrymandering, the definition of political moderation in today's polarized climate, and lightens the mood by speculating about which elected officials are most knowledgeable about sports.00:00 Introduction01:15 Trump’s first 100 days have gone badly03:00 Trump is mailing it in05:00 Trump’s authoritarianism is a product of laziness08:00 What would it take for Trump to improve his approval rating?12:00 If Trump was truly interested in a third term, he’d be communicating to non-supporters… and he’s not13:25 Dr. Jodi Vittori joins the show! 14:35 Define "kleptocracy" and what are some examples? 16:25 You can't have kleptocracy in a functioning democracy 17:35 Is Putin's Russia the clearest example of kleptocracy? 18:55 Hungary is the more subtle version of kleptocracy 19:55 The US kleptocracy will be unique 21:25 Is the tariff exemption process how we end up in kleptocracy? 23:10 Much of the constitution was set up for anti corruption as they knew it at the time 24:55 The Supreme Court laid the foundation for this crisis 26:25 How do you know when you're in a kleptocracy? 27:40 Lack of accountability for elites led us here 28:40 Conflict of interest is unethical but not a crime 30:25 Until 1992 members of Congress could pocket their campaign war chest 31:40 Citizens United made America unique compared to other democracies 32:45 What are the next steps on the road to kleptocracy? 33:55 Crypto is a massive enabler of corruption 35:40 State and local governments are particularly susceptible to corruption 37:05 Are there certain states that have the most corruption? 40:10 What are some reforms that we should look to pass? 44:55 Lobbying used to be corporation vs citizens, now it's corporation vs corporation 45:55 The interests of the citizens are now secondary 47:40 We've enabled corruption 49:25 The US has become a tax haven for overseas money laundering 50:55 Did Trump bring about kleptocracy, or were we already on our way there? 52:25 How did Dr. Vitorri end up specializing in anti-corruption?55:50 Chuck's thoughts on the interview with Dr. Vittori 57:00 Ask Chuck 57:15 Should politicians or government officials be legally liable for lying to, or misleading the public? 1:01:25 What would it take to stop gerrymandering? 1:07:40 What does it mean to be a political moderate? 1:12:15 What elected official is the most knowledgeable about sports?
Chapter 1: What are Trump's authoritarian tendencies during his presidency?
But she spent a lion's share of her career in the military, educated at the Air Force and Academy, and she's a specialist in kleptocracies and actually how democracies get corrupted. And she wrote a pretty provocative piece for Foreign Affairs about that issue. Is America creeping into a kleptocracy? You probably heard me use that word.
I said that in 2024, at a minimum, that Donald Trump would turn the Republican Party in some ways into a kleptocracy. I don't think we're there yet as a country. But when you have when you have things like this inaugural fund that law firms have to pay into.
in order to keep the government off their back, that would pretty much put you into that category where you might be arguing that we are creeping into that. So look, it's a long conversation. I want to get into that.
But before I get into that, I want to talk a little bit about the second 100 days, because I think in fairness to him, look, I've been highly critical because I think this has been a disastrous start. This is not because whether I support him or oppose him. This is just political incompetence, how they've gone about this. Yes, I think it's economic incompetence, too.
But if this was the plan, they've executed the plan extraordinarily poorly. There was a way to do government reform better and more secure. There was a way to do tariffs better. There was probably a way to order reorder his agenda, but he chose not to do it. And there's a fundamental part of his presidency that strikes me as a bit lazy, that he is kind of mailing it in.
And you know one way you can see this, that Donald Trump is now mailing in the presidency? It's his travel schedule for the first 100 days. He marked the 100th day with a trip to Michigan. What's shocking about his trip to Michigan is that that's the first, essentially, it's the first battleground state he's bothered to visit since the beginning of his term.
He had one day where he traveled to North Carolina, Nevada, and California. He was checking out flood damage in North Carolina. This was right there. It was something he had been scoring points on due to what was a poor recovery effort led by FEMA in western North Carolina during the remnants of a hurricane that devastated them with floods in western North Carolina.
So he made a political stop there. Made a political stop in Nevada and then toured the wildfire damage in L.A. But you take that day away and that's three less. Basically, the only trips he would have made are to the Super Bowl, to the Daytona 500 and to Bedminster or Mar-a-Lago over and over and over again.
And what's interesting is that it's quite the contrast from his first term and his first term in the first hundred days. He traveled quite a bit. In fact, he was a very, you know, yes, he still golfed quite a bit. Now he seems to be only. golfing on weekends.
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Chapter 2: How does kleptocracy affect democracy?
So the fact that he waited literally to his 100th day to have his first election public event outside of Washington to explain his tariff policy, I think that just strikes me as lazy. And it is kind of the hallmark of how this White House has been run. In some ways, they make it look like there's a lot of motion going on.
Chapter 3: What examples of kleptocracy exist globally?
but in some ways they're not, you know, take, he signs executive orders, but he doesn't try to pass legislation. They're trying to take a lot of political shortcuts. They're not doing, if you wanted to cut government, you wouldn't do it the way they're doing it with Doge because most of the cuts that they make are gonna get restored.
Most of the executive order he's signing are gonna get thrown out by the courts. If he wanted to make real change, he has a Republican Congress that's pretty compliant, But guess what? Legislation is hard. Trying to get lawmakers to do it's going to take time and effort. And I think, you know, we sit here and wonder, oh, he's an authoritarian.
In some ways, he's an authoritarian by laziness, meaning he'd prefer to just sign edicts because he doesn't want to have to put in the work that it takes to host members of Congress and cajole them to do X or host members of Congress and cajole them to do Y or travel the country and put public political pressure.
He doesn't know for a guy who prides himself at being Mr. Salesman and Mr. Art of the deal. He's done a terrible job of selling his policies and selling them to the country. He has spent a lot more time on true social that he has talking with people outside of his, uh, bubble. Uh,
It is notable to me that this week he's at least doing interviews with media entities that are not just espousing the MAGA line of thinking. He interviewed with ABC News, interviewed with The Atlantic. And that is a huge difference from Trump 1.0. Trump 1.0 talked to everybody. Trump 1.0 was tweeting. Trump 1.0 was trying to communicate with the entire country.
I mean, even if let's just take the example. Let's say he was just so lazy he only wanted to golf on weekends. Well, then travel the country to different golf courses and golf on weekends. Actually connect with the rest of the American people. Right now he's conducting a presidency campaign. that is essentially sitting on Air Force One or one of his two clubs. He's a creature of habit.
He's creature comfort. And when you get older, that's what happens. Joe Biden spent just about every weekend in Delaware. Well, you know, Donald Trump wants to spend every weekend at Mar-a-Lago or Bedminster. And so it just struck me that to see this event, which was surprising, right? He gets a lot of energy from these things. So the question is, perhaps he maybe he's just
Getting older, getting more tired, doesn't want to, you know, needs to work three and a half, four days a week, doesn't want to have the full five day weeks, doesn't wants to have extra recovery time. Whatever it is, I actually think it's harming his presidency just from a communication standpoint. Whether you love him or hate him, he's the best communicator they have.
And he doesn't seem to actually want to go out there and communicate with the public right now. He went to Michigan. It's almost like they said, OK, we got to have 100 days event. But. He's right back here.
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Chapter 4: How does the U.S. Constitution address corruption?
Chapter 5: What are the unique characteristics of U.S. kleptocracy?
I mean, even if let's just take the example. Let's say he was just so lazy he only wanted to golf on weekends. Well, then travel the country to different golf courses and golf on weekends. Actually connect with the rest of the American people. Right now he's conducting a presidency campaign. that is essentially sitting on Air Force One or one of his two clubs. He's a creature of habit.
He's creature comfort. And when you get older, that's what happens. Joe Biden spent just about every weekend in Delaware. Well, you know, Donald Trump wants to spend every weekend at Mar-a-Lago or Bedminster. And so it just struck me that to see this event, which was surprising, right? He gets a lot of energy from these things. So the question is, perhaps he maybe he's just
Getting older, getting more tired, doesn't want to, you know, needs to work three and a half, four days a week, doesn't want to have the full five day weeks, doesn't wants to have extra recovery time. Whatever it is, I actually think it's harming his presidency just from a communication standpoint. Whether you love him or hate him, he's the best communicator they have.
And he doesn't seem to actually want to go out there and communicate with the public right now. He went to Michigan. It's almost like they said, OK, we got to have 100 days event. But. He's right back here.
So anyway, it's just fascinating to me how I think that as tumultuous as the first hundred days, there's an underlying aspect of this that there's actually kind of a laziness to the president in his lack of salesmanship, lack of doing these things. One other thing, because I think it's a fair question. So what would a I've been pretty doom and gloom.
I think it's going to be pretty hard for Donald Trump to recover. I think he's probably – if you told me if I went into a coma today and didn't wake up until January 20th, 2029, and you said to me, Donald Trump's approval rating never got over 45 percent for the rest of the term while you were in a coma, it wouldn't surprise me. And I've gone through the reasonings before of why I did this.
I think particularly in a second term, that's part of the, you know, that's part of the why there's probably a shorter leash with the public, public like sort of, oh, he's going to be that. All right, forget it. Right. And there may be they may give up on him quicker, especially since he's messing up on supposedly the issue that was his core competency. Right. But let me do the other side.
So let's say I wake up from my... mythical coma, and it turns out he's popular. What would have happened? Well, I think in this next 100 days, for that to happen, for him to sort of right this ship, he needs some points on the board. Maybe he cuts an Iran deal. Maybe he gets both Russia and Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire.
Maybe he's able to get Israel and the Palestinians to at least cease violent interactions. Perhaps he's able to get some trade deals with India, Australia, Japan, the UK. I'm skeptical of all those things, but it's not out of the question. Right. It's not as if those aren't active things he's engaged in at the moment. But that's what the next. Oh, no. By the way, how about putting some.
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Chapter 6: How does crypto facilitate corruption?
Right now, he just rants to his supporters, makes him happy on Truth Social. What he doesn't fully appreciate is no one sees this stuff outside of his filter bubble. Guess what? That 40% of the country is with him. There's another 60% that's not with him. And he doesn't seem to be that interested in communicating with that 60% anymore. Trump 1.0 was. Trump 1.0 traveled the country.
Trump 1.0 seemed to want to connect to the public. Perhaps. This is the best evidence we have yet that Trump has no interest in a third term, because if he did, he'd be behaving like somebody who wanted to run for reelection. He's behaving like somebody who's worn out already at the start of a second term. And look, he's not a spring chicken.
And it could very well be that the job itself has become physically taxing. All right. So with that, I want to pause here. We're going to sneak in a quick break. And when we come back, this is a fascinating conversation with Jody Vittori. And again, we talk about a lot of countries and sort of the various phases. When is something a kleptocracy? When is in it?
Thank you.
So what is the state of the American democracy? This is a question I get frequently from friends, neighbors, viewers, listeners. Are we in a constitutional crisis? How things are. And I my answer for the last six months is like, well, you know, the thing that I'm nervous about is that, you know, stage one of an authoritarian regime is when a democracy becomes a kleptocracy.
And I had been kind of saying it without a lot of academic rigor. And then I read a terrific piece in Foreign Policy by Georgetown professor Dr. Jody Vittori, who is my guest today, who wrote about this very issue that making the case that we are now in an early stage, early stages of what's
If this were happening in any other country, we'd identify as, hey, this appears to be forming a kleptocracy. So, Dr. Vittorio, appreciate you coming on.
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Chapter 7: What reforms can protect democratic institutions?
Thanks for having me here today. I appreciate it.
So look, let's start with what we mean. You know, you hear the word kleptocracy and I'll be honest, it's like, is this some sort of Superman word or does it have to do with the Kremlin? Right. Like there's a lot of people kleptocracy, you know, define it and tell me, give me a couple of examples around the world that are that you might file under kleptocracy right now.
Sure. So kleptocracy literally means rule by thieves, like kleptomaniac, someone who can't stop stealing. Ocracy at the end, like democracy, government by the people, theocracy, government by religion. So kleptocracy is just putting those two together. So government by thieves.
Government by thieves. Let's take a step back. That's pretty, that's, there you go. It's not a charming term. No, it's not charming at all. There's no upside. There's never a positive case for a kleptocracy, is there?
No, there is not, although people will try to come up with some crazy reasons to justify why they should be a kleptocracy or what they're really doing is reforming things or that's how their culture is set up or whatever. But at the end of the day, they're very predatory on their citizens and often very predatory on the world.
So there's not one definition of what kinds of things make rule by thieves or what's thiefy enough, what's thievery enough to make it a kleptocracy. But there's a couple of things that we look at that when we're thinking about a place that is a kleptocracy.
One is that just the amount of money and stuff that is being basically stolen by these thieves and what happens to the institutions of government. And so we have different terms that have, like, if you like Venn diagrams, there's a lot of overlap. Kleptocracy, grand corruption, and state capture often get used interchangeably. There's some slight differences between them.
Yeah, nationalizing an economy, is that automatically a kleptocracy?
It doesn't have to be. And I will push back on one of your first sentences just a little bit. There are cases where you have incredibly authoritarian regimes, even totalitarian regimes, that don't engage in large-scale grand corruption. So they're still hideous. Think Pol Pot in Cambodia. Lots of petty corruption, people paying bribes to just survive.
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Chapter 8: How does campaign finance impact political corruption?
Forget Switzerland anymore. Forget the Caymans. Aren't we as good as anybody?
As I mentioned before, former Secretary of the Treasury Yellen said we're the easiest place to launder money and to tax Justice Network and plenty of other groups that have agreed with her.
And it's gotten much- And this is over and above the Caymans, right? Who was notorious back in the day, right?
The Tax Justice Network tries to assess these, and the top ones are always the Cayman Islands, usually Switzerland, British Virgin Islands, and us somewhere in the top ones. I haven't looked at this year's, but we're always in the top three, which is not a top three you want to be in. But those are even before we get into the changes since January 20th.
With, you know, enabling, further enabling crypto, saying you're not going to enforce anti-corruption laws, gutting various asset finance, asset forfeiture and other task forces that have now been dissolved by the attorney general. The golden passport thing is not really helping the situation in that regard because you're... Like, hey, pay me off and you can have U.S.
citizenship and all the rights and protections that are actually that go with it. But even before that, there were concerns. The reasons the United States was already at the top. It was the easiest place to form anonymous shell companies, anonymous trusts, et cetera. It was the loopholes for being able to evade tax and stuff are already incredibly high.
Those shell companies and through other means, but also things like tax sharing, information sharing. So when you filed your taxes, assuming you did it since we just passed tax day, you had to file whether you had any overseas bank accounts.
The United States, with Switzerland in particular, was something called Swiss Leaks in 2016, where they found all these Americans are hiding their money in Switzerland. They require countries, they put a lot of pressure on companies to send the information on bank accounts of American citizens to the U.S. But the United States doesn't share that information with other countries in return.
So what that did is become... Well, open all your bank accounts in the States and get an anonymous shell company, get an anonymous address. You can't just directly open an anonymous shell company into a U.S. bank. It's not quite that easy because banks have rules under the bank secrecy law and so forth.
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