The Chuck ToddCast
Why Vietnam Still HAUNTS American Politics: Inside Netflix’s 'Turning Point' | Chuck Todd
Fri, 16 May 2025
Chuck Todd opens with a personal reflection on his father's connection to Vietnam before welcoming distinguished guests Ambassador John Negroponte and filmmaker Brian Knappenberger to discuss the new documentary series Turning Point and the lasting impacts of the Vietnam and Iraq wars on American politics and society. The conversation explores how Vietnam fundamentally shifted America's perception of itself, with Ambassador Negroponte sharing his firsthand experiences from the conflict. They examine how televised coverage transformed public perception of war, debate whether Vietnam was "worth it" in the context of the Cold War, and analyze why America ultimately lost the conflict. The discussion dives deep into how Vietnam became the Baby Boomers' defining generational experience, shattering trust in government institutions.They explore the military's evolution into a predominantly Republican constituency, the long-term political fallout of pardoning draft dodgers, and the devastating impact of drug use among soldiers during the conflict. The guests offer a rare perspective on how the Vietnamese people recovered from the war's effects and draw striking parallels between the withdrawals from Saigon and Afghanistan. They reflect on how these historical conflicts continue to shape modern American politics, noting that despite multiple Vietnam veterans running for president, none have ever won the office. They conclude with a thought-provoking consideration of how future generations might commemorate the 75th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, leaving listeners with a deeper understanding of how America's past military engagements continue to influence its present and future.Timeline:00:00 Introduction00:30 Chuck’s personal connection to Vietnam was his dad02:30 Vietnam + Iraq still haunt American politics04:10 John Negroponte and Brian Knappenberger join the Chuck Toddcast! 06:35 What do you hope people take away from Netflix's Turning Point?08:55 Vietnam's shadow loomed over the Iraq wars 10:55 We rarely talk about the war itself, mostly just the fallout 12:40 Vietnam shifted America's perception of itself 13:25 Ambassador Negroponte's experience of being in Vietnam 16:55 Was Vietnam viewed as a proxy war at the time? 20:00 The Iraq war has the same effect on our political psyche as Vietnam23:00 How did daily press coverage affect the ability to control the narrative 25:00 Vietnam being televised drastically changed the public's perception 27:00 Embedded reporters caused new challenges for managing the narrative 28:15 Was Vietnam worth it since we won the cold war? 30:05 Why did we lose the war? 32:45 Watergate ruined historians ability to document presidents 34:15 Vietnam was the boomer's coming of age story, shook their trust in government 35:30 Many January 6th rioters were Vietnam vets37:40 The importance of equipping and training local forces 39:10 Why did the military become a Republican constituency? 40:40 Pardoning the draft dodgers had long term political impacts 42:40 The horrible impact of drug use by soldiers in Vietnam 47:40 The perspective from the side of the north? 49:10 When did the Vietnamese recover from the effects of the war? 52:25 No Vietnam vet has ever been president 55:10 The military is America's only institution that has bipartisan support 58:35 How similar/different were the withdrawals from Saigon and Afghanistan? 59:25 What will the retrospective be on the 75th anniversary of the fall of Saigon1:02:35 Chuck’s thoughts on the interview
Chapter 1: What is Chuck Todd's personal connection to the Vietnam War?
Well, happy Friday, that's right, I've snuck in a special edition of the Chuck Todd cast, both of course in the audio and visual space. My guess for this, it's a special on the, look, we just passed the 50th anniversary of the fall of Saigon, essentially the end of the Vietnam War.
And look, Vietnam has sort of defined our... For half the country or anybody over the age of 50, Vietnam has been a definer of our politics. I mean, I can just tell you about my own family. My father... We'll tell you he's no longer with us, but he would say to me, the reason he became a Republican is he blamed LBJ for Vietnam and the death of his best friend.
His best friend died in a training accident after being drafted to go into Vietnam. I'll never forget when I was going through my dad's things. He had a whole file folder on every time he had to deal with potentially going to Vietnam. And he didn't have to go. And he didn't want to go. He had a medical deferment at first. He had flat feet.
And then when that didn't work, he got lucky with his lottery number. But what was interesting is how he had saved all of that. And he had all this information. And I'll tell you why it had a huge impact on me.
Anytime any of these guys that have run for office over the last 20 years, 30 years, who claim they couldn't remember how they got out of Vietnam or couldn't remember this or couldn't remember that, all I would remember is my dad's file folder. And I'm like, if you were that concerned about getting out of Vietnam, you knew every gosh darn detail of how you got out. Oder was es nehmen würde.
Und ich werde es euch sagen, ich habe mich immer mehr als eine harsche Person auf irgendwelche Politiker gesetzt, die sagen würden, schau, ich begrüße niemanden, der versucht hat, davon herauszukommen. Und es sind diese Erfahrungen. Und in vielen Fällen waren viele Baby-Boomer-Politik entweder definiert oder redefiniert durch den Einfluss der Vietnam-Ware.
Also, meine Gäste heute sind Brian Knappenberger. Er ist der Mann hinter dem unglaublichen Dokument, das jetzt überall auf Netflix steht, Turning Point, über Vietnam. And John Negroponte, who is, of course, a longtime ambassador, mostly in Republican national security circles. He was in Vietnam from 64 to 68. He was there.
And in this interview, you'll hear, I mean, in many ways, he kind of still supports the idea. You know, he doesn't. begrudgt die Idee, dort zu sein, und glaubt immer noch, dass es eine rechtliche Grundlage für das Gehen gab. Es ist also eine wichtige Kontrabalance in dieser Konversation, die Sie hören werden.
Aber schauen Sie, wir kommen dazu, wie Vietnam in vielen Fällen noch heute unsere Politik beschädigt. You could argue Vietnam plus the Iraq war coupled together, right, has now impacted multiple generations and sort of impacted multiple presidencies and how they manage national security and how we make these decisions. So, look, I think it's...
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Chapter 2: Who are the guests discussing Vietnam and the Netflix series 'Turning Point'?
No matter what age group you belong to, I think you're going to enjoy this conversation. And if you've seen Turning Point, then you'll really enjoy this conversation as sort of an after action type of conversation. So look, it's a special that I'm dropping because it's kind of standalone. I don't want to get any modern politics stuck to it here.
Aber ich denke, es ist eine faszinierende Konversation und ich denke, Sie werden es genießen. Also genießen Sie diese besondere Extra-Edition des Chuck-Podcasts diese Woche.
Ich bin Theresa und meine Empfehlung an alle Entrepreneure, startet mit Shopify erfolgreich durch. Ich verwende Shopify schon seit dem ersten Tag und die Plattform macht mir nie Probleme. Ich habe viele Probleme, aber die Plattform ist nie eins davon. Ich habe das Gefühl, dass Shopify ihre Plattform kontinuierlich optimiert. Alles ist super einfach, integrier- und verlinkbar.
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Well, today we have a special treat. As many historians and folks of a certain age may know, we're coming up. This is the 50th anniversary of the fall of Saigon. It's hard to believe the Vietnam War is that far in our past for so many Americans. It does not feel like something that is that far in our past. And yet, here I am in my 50s and I was born during the Vietnam War.
And I think one of my guests, Brian Knappenberger, was also born in the 50s. During the Vietnam War, we're also joined by a former ambassador to Vietnam for the United States, John Negroponte, who was ambassador, who was in Saigon for four years, 64 to 68. So Brian Appenberger is the documentarian behind a terrific five part series about the Vietnam War on Netflix.
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Chapter 3: How did Vietnam shift America's perception of itself and its politics?
By the time you're hearing this, I hope you've already been watching at least one, possibly two episodes. They're terrific. And it's an attempt to tackle the war from all sorts of angles during the moment itself, the cultural impact, the political impact. But I will shut up here a minute. Brian, you describe what you're hoping people get out of Turning Point.
And 50 years later, as an historian, where Vietnam was sort of I always felt like I was culturally and politically brought up in response to the Vietnam War in my household. I'm sure you felt that way too. We didn't experience it. So I'm constantly consuming scholarship on Vietnam to just understand how my dad's brain worked. And he's no longer with us, but he was of that era.
I have this distinct memory after he died. of finding this file folder. He didn't have to go, but he had kept meticulous records of all of his deferments. And then when his lottery number happened to be high, everything it took, and that's why I've never accepted a politician who says they're not sure how they got out of Vietnam.
I'm like, oh yeah, my dad, who was no rich guy or anything, he kept meticulous notes about his status. But for me, it was all about not being there. That was always the goal of people. You were there having not having a gun or my uncle who immediately threw his uniform away. Yeah. When he came back to the States after having served and to this day doesn't like talking about it.
So what what's what do you hope people take away from Turning Point?
Ich hatte eine sehr ähnliche Erfahrung mit dir. Mein Vater war in Vietnam, als ich geboren wurde. Und während meiner frühen Kindheit wollte ich zusammenarbeiten, was diese Kriege betrifft und was es bedeutet. Und ich denke, dass die Erstellung dieser Serie You know, it's really about a belief that the Vietnam War had this lasting impact on us.
And that's an impact that we're very much still feeling. That the America that existed before the United States engaged militarily in Vietnam was just a radically different country than the America that emerged after our troops came home. And that America, that new America... you know, really contain the roots of a lot of what plagues our society today or is a part of our society today.
Widespread alienation, deep cynicism, this profound distrust in government. It seemed to show a kind of breakdown in civic institutions. And it made us question our role in the world. You know, how should the US intervene militarily in international conflicts?
You know, the 1950s in some way was almost peak trust, right? There was like, in some ways, at least Für bestimmte Amerikaner. Ich will nicht hier sitzen und sagen, dass Afrikaner keine hohe Vertrauen in die Regierung in den 1950ern hatten. Ich will das anerkennen. Aber bei weißen Amerikanern gab es eine echte Vertrauen in die Regierung.
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Chapter 4: What was Ambassador John Negroponte's experience in Vietnam and how did he view the war?
Yeah, I think it's, you know, I've heard so much about it and I think it does go back to my father serving there. I think, you know, hearing stories slowly over the years. He was clearly somebody who fit into that category of not really wanting to talk about it too much. It would come out in these very sort of Es war einfach so dramatisch, als würde er mir eine Geschichte erzählen oder so etwas.
Und du bist in diesem, du bist fast ein Verlust, ein Geheimnis. Was ist passiert? Warum ist es so viel Schmerz noch für verschiedene Menschen in Vietnam, als du anfängst, mit anderen Menschen zu sprechen? Warum ist es so viel Ungewissheit darüber? Und auch nur, was ist passiert? Was sind die Events der Krieg? Das ist etwas, was ich glaube, dass die meisten nicht wirklich wissen.
I don't think we ever talk about the war itself. It's always about the fallout of the war. It's about what happened to soldiers, those who didn't want to serve versus who were forced to serve. You're right, we don't actually talk about what happened on the ground as much. But I want to tap into something else you and I both discussed.
Und
Look, personal events always dictate these things. His best friend, my dad had not the easiest childhood, and I'll just leave it at that, but his best friend that sort of was a stabilizing force in childhood, got killed in a training, basically on his way to being sent to NAM. He was drafted and in the training mission, died there. And You know, I now realize my dad never got over losing him.
So for him, he blamed Johnson and it was visceral. It was visceral. You said your father had that same feeling towards Nixon. And it's like, I run into this. You either are angry at Nixon or you're angry at Johnson.
Ja, absolut. Ich meine, das war... Und warum kreiert die Vietnamkriege so tiefe Gefühle in allen? Sie personalisieren es, richtig? Sie personalisieren es so viel. Ich denke, es ist, weil die Menschen, die Verluste wie dein Vater erlebt haben, das hat die Leute persönlich getroffen, mit Leuten, die sie kannten, Freunden, Brüdern. Aber es war auch etwas, was größer war, richtig?
Wer sind wir als Land? Es gab etwas über die Vietnamkriege. die unsere Identität verändert hat und wie wir mit der Welt verabschiedet sind und unsere Präsenz und unsere Leidenschaft in der Welt. Und das ist die Sache, mit der die Leute einen schwierigen Zeitraum haben, mit der sie kämpfen und seitdem versucht haben, diese Fragen zu beantworten. Ich denke, es sind beide Dinge.
Es ist persönlich, aber es ist auch, wer sind wir als Land? Genau.
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Chapter 5: How did televised media coverage during Vietnam change public perception of war?
Everybody is always fighting the last war. I mean, that's the way wars go. I think you guys overplay in your discussion... the lasting impact of Vietnam. Because I think we finally got, we had what we called the Vietnam Syndrome. And for a number of years after that, and I went on to many different jobs. In fact, I was Henry Kissinger's director for Vietnam when he negotiated the peace agreement.
And I was with Bush and Reagan and Bush later on. We sort of finally got over the Vietnam Syndrome. I would say when Bush decided to, you know, Panamá zu zerstören und Noriega zu ersetzen, Noriega zu ersetzen. Und dann ging er in die erste Irakische Krieg, die Kuwaitische Krieg.
Und an diesem Punkt, glaube ich, haben wir endlich zumindest den Aspekt des Vietnames-Syndroms übernommen, der sagte, sende nicht die US-Mitglieder.
Denken Sie, dass wir tatsächlich, es ist interessant, ich stimme dazu, dass wir wahrscheinlich über den Vietnames-Hangover sind, wenn es um den Einfluss auf unsere Politik geht. und der Militär. Aber ich würde sagen, dass wir jetzt in einer anderen Situation sind, und das ist die Irakische Krieg.
Ich denke, die zweite Irakische Krieg hat wahrscheinlich diesen Einfluss auf unsere Psyche, unsere politische Psyche, links und rechts, gerade jetzt, das ist sehr ähnlich zu dem, was Vietnam in den 70er und 80er Jahren in Amerika getan hat.
Ich hatte viel damit zu tun. Ich war in der UN, als wir Resolutionen verabschiedeten. Do you accept that premise? I think partially. But I want to identify another trend for you, which I don't know whether you've considered. What is it about these conflicts that we get into them?
And then after having trained a whole generation of people to fight the war, to learn the reason why, to be committed to the policy, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and now potentially Ukraine.
Although no boots on the ground in Ukraine, but let's say that. No, no, and yet we still might pull the plug.
I know. But what is it about this propensity that we have to get into these conflicts, but not be able to think it far enough through to assure our own selves that we're really going to stay the course? What kind of friend are you or an ally or a supporter of somebody if halfway through the deal, You decide to pull the plug.
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Chapter 6: Was the Vietnam War worth it given that the US won the Cold War but lost Vietnam?
And if I remember correctly, at the beginning, you had to fly the tape back to the United States, right? Before you could broadcast. But I think by the end, that was no longer the case.
The satellite was just kicking in, yeah.
I mean, look, I think one of the people we interviewed in the series is Dan Rather. And I think that there's a couple of things going on. I mean, first of all, you... You do have this technology that's bringing this into people's living rooms in a way that's making it very, very visceral for people.
That's making them connect and understand the war in a way that they hadn't before, or at least the brutality of it. Aber es gibt eine Generation von Journalisten, die ihre Zähne in Vietnam ausgeschnitten haben. Dan Rather ist einer davon. Er empfiehlt in seiner Interview die Rolle der Presse, die Ereignisse zu beurteilen und ehrlich zu informieren und die Wahrheit zur Macht zu sprechen.
Es gibt verschiedene Beispiele dazu. Der Moraly Safer-Beispiel ist total faszinierend und fühlt sich heute genauso relevant an, wie es damals war. Ich meine, diese Idee, dass Moraly Safer, der CBS-News-Korrespondent, herausfinden würde, dass die amerikanischen Truppen diese südvietnamesischen Villagen brennen, die Zippo-Lighter in die Fast-Huts nehmen.
Tom, ich denke, dass die Probleme sind, wenn man einen dieser Verbrechen oder was auch immer, It sort of mushrooms into being the whole story. And it's not the whole story, I promise you.
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Chapter 7: Why did the US lose the Vietnam War according to Ambassador Negroponte?
I hear you, Ambassador, but that's the problem, right? And this is where the one symbolic, you know, you may have one rogue platoon, but if it got caught on camera...
Especially if it's well documented. Absolutely. So what are you doing in Iraq? You're embedding these people in the units. It's like having a body camera on you while you're in combat, right? They see everything you do.
Well, you know, I'm a believer that transparency is better at the end of the day, but I understand that it could become a problem when you're trying to manage a media narrative.
Yeah, and when you're trying to put, here's the issue, trying to put incident X into the context or perspective of the entire conflict. And, you know, then you get into fairly subjective judgments, I agree. But, you know, you still have to make the judgment as to whether or not it's the right thing for us to be in that conflict.
All right, let me ask you this, Ambassador. We lost the Vietnam War, but won the Cold War. What does that tell us about whether Vietnam was worth it?
Well, maybe it tells you that these regional conflicts were not as important as we thought they were. You could make that argument, I guess. In other words, it may not have had much to do with the downfall of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, Afghanistan did have something to do with the fall of the Soviet Union, because The Soviets were sick and tired of their occupation of Afghanistan.
And they came to us in the late 1980s. I was on the National Security Council with Colin Powell. And they came to us and said, we want to discuss withdrawal from Afghanistan. And I, being a hardcore Cold Warrior at the time, said, Colin, don't believe them. That's a trick. It's a trick. And his answer to me was really good. He said,
You know, John, if you had as many beers as I've had with Soviet generals and Soviet admirals, you would know they want to get the hell out of there.
That's interesting. How do you rectify that question, right? Which is, we win the Cold War, but we lost Vietnam. Therefore, was Vietnam worth it or not? Which has always been a tough question to deal with.
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Chapter 8: How did the Vietnam War impact American society and politics long-term?
I mean, it was just, it just became too hard. We'd spent our political capital with most, with many of the American people and certainly with the Congress.
You have a population struggling with why we're even in Vietnam in the first place. What is the goal? I think in the very early days of Vietnam, back to the Cold War, obviously the discussion is so rooted in this Cold War thinking, that this stark idea that there's good and bad, that the nations of the world had to pick sides. Well, not only that, but
But also that if Vietnam fell, there was the danger that then the Vietnamese might go on to other parts of Southeast Asia, which they in fact did not do.
Wenn man sich darüber nachdenkt, nach 11 Jahren von dieser Krieg, und der Unwahrheit des amerikanischen Publikums, ob das wirklich ein wirklicher Wunsch war oder nicht. Und sicherlich, wie wir es jetzt wissen, wenn man durch diese Serie geht, hört man diese Tapes. We list hundreds and hundreds of hours of these White House recordings from all three.
The only three presidents to really record themselves after Nixon. That's not such a good idea. But listen to these.
I have to tell you, just a quick aside. There's a great alternative history show. It's on Apple about going to Mars and the space race and this alternative history that has America losing the race to the moon. The Soviets win the race to the moon. How would America react? All this stuff. And one of the premises in that
is that Nixon only serves one term, not two, and therefore the taping mechanisms never found out about. And then we get like six more presidents and all of these incredible tape recordings of all this. I mean, in some ways, Watergate ruined historians' ability to have incredible first-hand knowledge of these presidents' thinking. You know, it's a bummer.
You know why these guys did that? I mean, I'm pretty certain. dass die Aufnahmen im System installiert wurden, weil Both Kissinger and Nixon thought it would help them better sell their books after their term of office. I'm not kidding you.
Oh, they both were that narcissistic, sorry.
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