On Tuesday, the Supreme Court heard a case that could hand parents with religious objections a lot more control over what their kids learn in the classroom.Adam Liptak, who covers the Supreme Court, explains how a case about children’s picture books with titles like “Pride Puppy” and “Uncle Bobby’s Wedding” has broad implications for schools across the country.Guest: Adam Liptak, who covers the Supreme Court and writes Sidebar, a column on legal developments, for The New York Times.Background reading: In a lively and sometimes heated argument, the Supreme Court’s conservative majority appeared set to allow opt-outs from L.G.B.T.Q. stories in schools.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: What is the Supreme Court case about children's books?
From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily. On Tuesday, the Supreme Court heard a case that could hand parents with religious objections a lot more control over what their kids learn in the classroom. Or, more specifically, what they don't learn.
Today, my colleague Adam Liptak explains how a case about children's picture books with titles like Pride Puppy and Uncle Bobby's Wedding has broad implications for schools across the country. It's Friday, April 25th. Adam, welcome back to the show. I feel like we're talking pretty frequently these days.
Seems that way.
So we have had you on the show a lot recently talking about the growing constitutional crisis that is happening under the Trump administration in this country. But I just want to acknowledge that that is not what we are going to talk about today, because today we are going to talk about what feels like a very normal, very interesting Supreme Court case that has some pretty big implications.
Right. Obviously, we have a constitutional crisis or a series of them. hanging like a cloud over the court. But the Roberts Court is still in business, still hearing major cases on culture wars issues. And on Tuesday, they heard a good one.
So tell us about that case.
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Chapter 2: What are the parents' religious objections to the children's books?
The case arose from the curriculum of Montgomery County, Maryland public schools. Montgomery County is a quite liberal suburb of Washington, DC. And in 2022, along with all the other storybooks that kids in pre-K through fifth grade read, they added initially seven new books that included gay and trans characters and themes. And when they first introduced these new books,
They gave parents with religious objections notice that on a certain day, the books would be discussed in class. And if you wanted to take your kids out of class, if you wanted to opt out, you could. And a number of parents did, and that system went on for about a year. According to the school board, it wasn't working. It was hard to administer. You had to figure out where to put the kids.
It seemed to be leading to absenteeism all day. And they said also that it stigmatized kids from families with gay and trans members who were confused about why discussion of books reflecting their lives was so provocative that other kids had to be withdrawn from school. So on that reasoning, the school said, we're not going to give notice anymore. We're not going to let you opt out.
If you want to go to public school, you will have the whole curriculum, including these books.
And so what happened after that?
So parents of many faiths were quite upset. They sued. They said, we're not asking you to take these books out of the library. We're not even asking you to take these books out of the classroom. We just want to go back to the system where on days these books are going to be discussed, you tell us and you give us the option to take our kids out of class.
Maybe this is really obvious, but can you just explain a little bit more? What specifically do the parents object to in these books?
The parents say that these books are a kind of indoctrination. That in depicting families with gay members, with trans members, in talking about same-sex marriage, in talking about preferred pronouns... The books tackle subjects that the parents say are not only age-inappropriate, but at odds with their ability to exercise the religious freedom guaranteed to them by the Constitution.
So I just want to make sure I understand this. The parents' objection is essentially that— The message in these books condones LGBTQ characters and living openly as LGBTQ people. And because that objection is grounded in their religious observance, that's why their rights are being violated. Is that it?
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Chapter 3: What is the story behind the book 'Uncle Bobby's Wedding'?
Uncle Bobby's Wedding.
Okay.
It's a storybook for young kids. It's full of colorful pictures. And the theme of the book is that a young girl named Chloe has a favorite uncle, Bobby, who's getting married to another man, Jamie. And she's unhappy about this. I'm going to pick up in the middle of the book, read you a little bit of it just to give you the flavor.
Great.
Mummy, said Chloe, I don't understand. Why is Uncle Bobby getting married? Bobby and Jamie love each other, said Mummy. When grown-up people love each other that much, sometimes they get married. But, said Chloe, Bobby is my special uncle. I don't want him to get married. I think you should talk to him, said Mummy. Chloe found Uncle Bobby sitting on a swing.
Why do you have to get married, she asked. Jamie and I want to live together and have our own family, said Bobby. You want kids? Only if they're just like you, said Bobby. And it goes on... Chloe becomes more cheerful. She actually saves the day near the end of the book when a wedding ring goes missing and she finds it and the wedding goes off without a hitch and everyone is happy.
OK, so that sounds like it's either a cute story about a girl and her uncle where the fact that he's marrying another man is sort of incidental to the story itself or to the parents who are objecting to these books. It sounds like they are reading this as an overt message of support of a gay marriage and therefore something that they feel should not be anywhere near a classroom.
Yeah, that's right.
So these books have obviously now found themselves in front of the Supreme Court. Take me to the oral arguments on Tuesday. How did they start?
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Chapter 4: How did the Supreme Court oral arguments begin and who represents the parents?
Which may not be possible for some people. So he's sort of saying... Let's weigh the equities here. Let's sort of balance out what the cost and the benefit is here. And he says it's a small ask.
Parents, not school boards, should have the final say on such religious matters. I welcome the court's questions.
But for the justices to decide this question, they have to think about a threshold question. Is the mere exposure of kids to ideas like this a burden on religion? And it's not obvious that it is. And so right away, Justice Clarence Thomas dives into this question about whether schools are burdening the religious freedom of parents.
Could you spend a minute or two to explain why the record shows that schools, The children are more than merely exposed to these sorts of things in the storybooks.
Yes, Your Honor.
And he focuses on a distinction that's a little legalistic, but it's really at the heart of what we're talking about. And that's the question of a distinction between exposure on the one hand and coercion on the other.
And just explain that distinction.
Well, exposure is something that happens to all of us every day. We read things, see things, apply critical analysis to them. Just because we've heard it doesn't mean we believe it. Coercion is kind of indoctrination, is kind of... forcing someone to say or believe something.
And the question for the court is, does that interfere with the parental right at home to raise kids in their faith to the extent that we've moved from mere exposure to something much more significant, coercion?
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Chapter 5: What legal distinction is made between exposure and coercion in this case?
Right. Basically, the actual reading to the child, the fact that that is more active is sort of the distinction here.
Yeah.
Can I just ask, why does the school require these books to be read to begin with? Like, why are they actually part of the curriculum?
Well, what they say is that the books are meant to teach respect and kindness. And to introduce kids to the idea that there are all sorts of different people from all sorts of different kinds of families. And to reinforce the idea that it's important to respect people's differences.
Got it. So the kids are actively reading these books or they're being read to them. How do the justices determine whether the contents of the books themselves actually qualify as coercive to the kids?
Well, they do it in what may be the most obvious way. Justice Sotomayor jumps in and says, let's talk about the actual books. Let's talk about Uncle Bobby's Wedding.
My new favorite book.
Uncle Bobby's Wedding is going to be, as a result of this, you know, shooting up the bestseller list, I imagine.
Watch out, Hunger Caterpillar.
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Chapter 6: Why are these books required in the school curriculum?
And it not only features same-sex marriage, which some people think is a good idea, but some people with religious objections think is a bad idea. But it also endorses it.
Uncle Bobby gets married to his boyfriend, Jamie, and everybody's happy. And everything is, you know, it portrays this. Everyone accepts this, except for the little girl, Chloe, who has reservations about it. But her mother corrects her. No, you shouldn't have any reservations about this.
Because little Chloe has an objection to same-sex marriage, and her mother disagrees with her and tells her it's fine. Justice Sotomayor says that's a misreading of Uncle Bobby's wedding.
Counsel, a couple of questions to clarify things. Uncle Bob's wedding, the character, the child character, wasn't objecting to same-sex marriage. She was objecting to the fact that marriage would take her uncle away from spending more time with her, correct?
Again, courts would be engaged in religious discrimination.
I'm asking you to answer my question. It wasn't that she was objecting to gay marriage, qua gay marriage, period. She was objecting to having her uncle's time taken by someone else.
I'm not sure that's correct, Your Honor. I think for a child of that age, it's hard to express what their actual concerns are.
So we sort of have a book club going on at the Supreme Court with varying interpretations of Uncle Bobby's wedding.
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Chapter 7: How do the Supreme Court justices interpret the content of the books differently?
Justice Sotomayor and I were discussing this before, and we could have a book club. And Justice Alito himself calls it this. And have a debate about how Uncle Bobby's marriage should be understood.
It also tells you something about the Supreme Court, that they managed to read it differently. And it's one thing if you read a statute differently, but you would think that there could be consensus on the meaning of a children's book.
Yeah, exactly. This is not the Talmud. Like the idea that the Supreme Court justices are arguing over the meaning of a book for children this small is just it's really kind of incredible.
Right.
Justice Alito?
And Justice Alito follows up on that point. What are the ages of the children who are involved here? He asks, how old are the children reading these books?
And the lawyer for the parents says... These books were approved for pre-K, which in Montgomery County can start as early as three if they're going to turn four that fall. They're quite young.
Now, would you agree that at a certain age... students are capable of understanding this point, which probably is not a point that can be understood by a four- or five-year-old. And that is that my teacher, who is generally telling me that certain things are right and that certain things are wrong, isn't necessarily going to be correct on everything. It is possible for me to disagree.
And Alito says, essentially, shouldn't age be a factor here? And I guess there's a logic to that position. I mean, assuming you accept that the books are pushing a vision of family life at odds with what religious parents want to have their children see and read.
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Chapter 8: How do age and critical thinking factor into the Court's consideration of coercion?
So in other words, Alito is saying that basically exposure is coercion for little kids. Like when they're that young, you can't really distinguish. Right.
Yeah, that's right so far as it goes, Rachel. Justice Jackson? Justice Katonji Brown Jackson pushes back on the idea.
Let me ask you another series of questions because I'm just trying to understand the implications.
And she said it's actually not that easy.
Is your argument actually confined to the content of the school's curriculum?
Even in school, you're exposed to all kinds of ideas, not just in the books you're reading. And she brings up some examples.
if we have a teacher who is gay and has a photo of a wedding on her desk? Is a parent able or could they opt out of having their student be in that classroom?
What if you have a gay teacher who puts out a wedding picture on her desk and talks about her wedding? Is that coercion?
What about the teacher showing pictures from the wedding? Here the board is imposing indoctrination on children. What if a student group puts up love is love posters around the school featuring gay same-sex couples or trans youth.
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