Chapter 1: What personal experiences shape the guest's views on press freedom?
How are you, my friend?
I'm doing well, and I feel like this is old home week because so many times you interviewed me on your CNN show from this very spot during COVID. And so it's nice to be back here, and it's nice to turn the tables and be able to interview you a little bit.
Yeah, I would love that. So what's going on? Everything good in your world?
Everything's good in my world. Recovery from leukemia is complete. I just had a two-year post-transplant checkup, got it all clear. It's an important milestone. So, yeah, I'm feeling good and just a little concerned about the state of the country, as you are.
Oh, my gosh. And the State of the Union is coming up.
Exactly.
Yeah, and look, it's... Since we have been, you know, did what we did, a lot has changed, especially as it relates to the media and in the world and with, quite frankly, the First Amendment, I believe. I mean, duh. No kidding.
No kidding. Well, look, let me start by asking, you've just sort of been through the ringer with the president and the Justice Department, but... My assumption is, and I think most people's assumption is, that the case is going to get thrown out. It's raised your profile. It's probably been good for you on net, raising the amount of followers. How are you doing and how has the experience been?
Are you shaken by it? Are you pleased by the reaction or what?
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Chapter 2: How does Donald Trump's administration impact journalism?
It was just, it was unbelievable. But so that's attention, but the support that I got from colleagues, from former colleagues, from, uh, my former organization, which was a very pleasant surprise. Um, but not, you know, quite frankly, um,
It wasn't shocking that they were supportive because they were standing for the First Amendment, which is freedom of the press, because that's their livelihood as well. And as you know, at its base, at its core, CNN is a journalistic organization with great journalists. Now, the management may change.
maybe good management or bad management, but I think that some of the best journalists in the world are at CNN, and I appreciate their support, and from other networks as well, including print, broadcast, radio, independent, all of them. Very much a lot of support. But I will say one thing.
I think that it's easy to get distracted as journalists in this world, and I think this story needs to stay in the news. It needs to be highlighted. It needs to be reported on because... Again, this is bigger than me, and this has huge ramifications for every single journalist in this country and beyond.
By the way, just a quick shout out. I hope you heard from Flip, our former colleague, who's a great producer on your show and love dealing with her.
I'm sure somewhere, but I don't have my phone now. I don't know if you've seen the court proceedings, but it flips it something. Maybe Pam Bondi's enjoying reading it or something.
Let me ask you this. What do you think Trump's actual goal is, or how far do you think he intends to take this assault on the First Amendment that he has launched?
Look, I think he'll take it as far as he can if he can just shut people up. But I hope I think that I will be able I'm going to be the person to help stop him from doing that. I think his goal is revenge. First of all, I think I know he doesn't like me. He likes to pretend like I don't know who he is. And this is the best thing that ever happened to him. And I have no idea what's going on.
No talent. Yeah, all that stuff.
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Chapter 3: What concerns arise from government control over media coverage?
Look, I have a therapist that I see every week. And there are things that do affect my mental health. And this, I always take it very seriously. And even if I don't think I need help, I talk to a therapist about it anyway, because, you know, the mind is a powerful thing and it can be like a balm or a salve or a numbing cream and it hides things, right? so that you can deal with it.
So I just talk to a therapist and I'm sure it does affect my mental health, but I feel like I am at least aware enough and open to therapy enough that I can handle those things. I don't really talk about my safety. It's something that I don't discuss. Do I have security? Yes. Is it concerning? Yes. Do I worry about the safety of
Considering what's happening in the news, my family members and my loved ones, I do. And, you know, we live in a crazy world. And as you know, the MAGA folks can be hostile. And one only has to look to January 6th to see the possibility of what's in them and who they're about. So yeah, it is concerning, but I do have security and that's all I'll say on that.
But let me go back to the ownership question because you do have these immensely wealthy people acquiring media property. I mentioned David Ellison and Elon Musk at Twitter. Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post and he has done what he can to neuter the Washington Post. I think he can't go all too far because there's still a lot of people with integrity working there.
But to the extent you have these mega billionaires buying these properties, if they keep going, buying CNN. What does the country look like in that scenario if the principal media outlets, let's say with the exception of the New York Times, are owned by mega billionaires who are aligned for their own reasons with the Trump movement?
Well, I'll answer that question, but it's not just about Trump-aligned media. It's media who are just afraid because some of them are not Trump-aligned and they're just afraid of this administration. And I believe the only way to stand up to a bully, and I mean this metaphorically, is just to punch him in the nose, is to stand up and not bend the knee and not to acquiesce.
And that's what has happened. What does it mean? It's frightening because, I mean, you didn't mention TikTok and David Ellison. The Ellisons have a hand in TikTok and the algorithm there. And Then, you know, if they get their druthers, they will have CBS as they already have. They will possibly have CNN if they buy Warner Brothers Discovery.
And so they will they will own a large swath of the journalistic organizations in this country. And to me, what does that say? That that that leads to that can lead to authoritarianism, a dictatorship, a state run media, a chilling of journalists. And what it ultimately means is that our Constitution, especially as it relates to the First Amendment, the freedom of the press means nothing.
And that should be frightening to all Americans.
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Chapter 4: How does race factor into the targeting of journalists?
And they don't want people moving organizations to the right or trying to change what journalism means or any of those things. And by the way, hold that thought because I want to add something to that. However, I think so there's a Streisand effect. And what they've done is they have elevated James Tallarico. in all of this.
But I do think that James Tallarico is right in that perhaps the motivation behind this from Brendan Carr and others was that they're concerned about Texas. And they understand that their livelihood...
And their power relies on the position that they're in and the person who has put them in the position that positions that they're in, which is all of them from Stephen Miller on down from, from JD Vance on down is Donald Trump.
And if Donald Trump is no longer in power, if he is no longer seen as the, you know, the American God King, then they will no longer hold power because the moment the Congress and the Senate, one or both change, changes, then it's over. Donald Trump's a lame duck. And they're lame ducks, and they're also in jeopardy of being impeached, prosecuted, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
So I think that is the real concern behind this whole thing with Tallarico.
This isn't journalism exactly, but there was a bizarre statement today that from Kevin Hassett, who's the head of the Council of Economic Advisers to President Trump, and he criticized as an embarrassment a new report by the New York Federal Reserve saying that American businesses and consumers pay 90% of tariffs, which is something that everyone
And the economic depression, except for a few crazy outliers, understands. CBO said it's 95%. But Kevin Hassett came out and said the people who wrote that report at the New York Fed should be disappointed. That shows you the mindset of the attempt at control of what people think and what they put out into the world.
Yeah, but is that surprising? People who, the authors of this New York Fed report or this Fed tariff study, that they should be disciplined. Journalists should be prosecuted. People who are his perceived political rivals should be prosecuted, impeached, jailed, or whatever. What does that say? That's what I mean. That's what I said earlier. This is authoritarianism. This is a dictatorship.
If you don't like something... for people who are just doing their jobs, then you try to take their freedom away or inhibit their freedom or their power in some way or just their being in some way. And so, look, it's terrible, but Kevin Hassett is just, you know, he's just spouting the same things that comes from the top. And so there you go.
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Chapter 5: What role does self-censorship play in the media today?
And people have to adapt. And, you know, this country, the whole idea of this country was that not, I don't believe in the melting pot thing, but I think that there was room for everybody. And I don't believe in colorblindness. I believe in recognizing who people are, what their attributes are, what their ethnicities are, what their values are, what they find important.
I think that's all important and should be recognized. But I think that goes completely against the whole idea of this sort of imperfect union and, and striving for a more perfect union. And that doesn't mean that as a guy, did you see that guy that was before the Senate subcommittee for his appointment to saying, you know, white culture is going by the wayside and yes, yes. Yeah.
And so that's what they really want. That's what they get people to believe. So do I have empathy to answer your question? I don't know if I have empathy. I have understanding. So if that's being empathetic, I feel like I am an empath in certain ways, but I understand why they're doing it. I don't agree with the reasons that they're doing it.
A question came in from the viewer who calls himself Disgruntled Gardener. And this is, I think, directed toward the oligarchs, not the rank and file you and I were just talking about. but the people with a lot of money who are behind Trump. The question is, what is it about the truth that scares these people so much? Do they feel they don't have enough money? Do you mean the oligarchs? Yes.
No, what is behind it? I just, just plain old greed, John. They're just greedy. That's it. How much money do you need? Seriously. I mean, we're men of a certain age, right? You're a little bit older than me, but we're men of a certain age. After a while, you're like, you know, and as you know, John, if you don't have your health, You don't have anything.
And money, all the money in the world is not going to buy your health back. Absolutely. Right. So I think it's just greed. And that's it. And it's, you know, it's kind of a mind's bigger than yours thing. And I have more money in my bank account than you and people. It's about greed and power. And that's it.
As what we call the legacy media has been bruised and battered, audiences shrinking, pressure on journalists from the top and from the White House, how effective do you think independent media have been and can be in filling the void?
I think that independent media has been for a while and especially now punching above its weight. And look, I would like to say we are so smart and we're an independent media and we're doing great. I think the public demanded independent media and independent journalists. And I think that I think that we are living up to the moment that we are presented with.
And I think that legacy media is doing the exact opposite. And so is it I think we're doing a great job? Yes. But more so than that, I just think that it was the right time. An opportunity presented itself, and I think independent media or independent journalists especially took advantage of that opportunity and have now stepped into the void.
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Chapter 6: How effective is independent media in the current landscape?
Oh, I saw this. And it has nothing to do with any, many of them don't even know that I worked for CNN.
It's funny. Toward the end of my career at CNN, and having been in cable TV for 15, 20 years, I started to feel less and less impact from what I was doing as the audiences shrank. I think that when I wrote a front page story in the Wall Street Journal 10 years before I was on television, that had a greater impact on the political dialogue than stuff I would say on cable shows after that.
And I have to say it's pretty heartening to think that where people like you, Acosta, the Bulwark, Terry Moran, all of that cumulatively You know, there are people who say, oh, you know, you're not on television anymore. So sorry. But there are ways in which, as you said, organically, these voices can come up, find an audience and make a difference.
Yeah. And look right there. See that behind me is not even on. I put, I walked in, I'm in a hotel room. I flipped it on and it immediately went to MSNBC or MSNOW. Nothing gets them because if I do watch, I will tune into to them because they don't put all these, you know, lunatics on to just lie to people.
And so that would be the choice if I did turn on to watch cable news, but that's not on, but my cell phone is on. And I'm looking at YouTube and social media and whatever else. So I understand that. And if you have kids, you have grandkids, John? Do you have grandkids? Do they ever really watch TV for an extended period of time, if at all?
No. And my children who are grown and have children wouldn't even consider subscribing to a cable package. It makes no sense to them whatsoever. Right.
Yeah. So there you go. There's, that's the answer to your question. So, um, look, even in someone who, who, uh, I vehemently disagree with a lot because I think she's just a terrible person, but there was, uh, and a hack and a grifter.
But even when there was a rumor that, you know, she was going to return to CBS or return to TV of CBS, you know, when Barry Weiss or Ellison took over and that's Megyn Kelly. And she said, why would I return to a dying industry? Right. And she's not wrong. That's something that I have to agree with her on. Why would why would you return to that?
Now, if there was if a cable company offered me, you know, a Rachel Maddow type, you know, contract, I don't know if I would turn it down. But I certainly would not want to do something for, you know, a certain period of time every single night just to go on or whatever. It have to be on my terms and something similar to what I'm doing now.
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