Rebecca Lemov is a historian of science at Harvard University and has been a visiting scholar at the Max Planck Institute. Her research explores data, technology, and the history of human and behavioral sciences. Her new book, "The Instability of Truth: Brainwashing, Mind Control and Hyper-Persuasion," is available now.https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324075264 Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com Go to ExpressVPN.com/ROGAN to get 4 months free! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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All right. Hello, Rebecca. Very nice to meet you.
Hi, Joe. Very nice to meet you, too.
So, first of all, what got you interested in mind control?
Well, so this is a question I've been asking myself just because I find myself after two and a half decades of having this topic. That initially seemed pretty niche and unusual, and not many people were interested or many people were skeptical about it, but... I thought it seemed like it embodied some of the more extreme.
If you could look at the way people are shaped by their environments and by what parts of your life are determined by you and what parts are determined by outside forces, that mind control would be a perfect area to investigate that because it's so extreme, especially if you looked at
particular cases so I because I'd done my dissertation at UC Berkeley on the history of behavioral engineering and how you know these kind of models for creating a society of control and encouragement in various ways like a behaviorist kind of dream and it seemed like the next step was to to look at something like brainwashing or mind control.
When you first started studying it, was it a less public sort of curiosity? Because now a lot of people are very much interested. I blame the Internet, mostly. I probably had a lot to do with it, too.
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