Much as with the disappearance of Sebastian Rogers, it could well be the very words of the parents themselves that are the key to the question of whether or not they murdered JonBenet Ramsey. Welcome Back to The Lore Lodge... https://www.bunkerbranding.com/pages/the-lore-lodge Subscribe on Patreon to support The Lore Lodge for just $1 per month! https://patreon.com/thelorelodge Get our new signature coffee blend at https://tablowroastingco.com/products/the-lore-lodge-mt-pocono-perk Shop our online retail store, find other content, and buy our partners' products at https://linktr.ee/theaidanmattis Discord: https://bit.ly/jointhelodge Shop sustainable products at https://www.gaiaindustrees.com/ using code "LORE" Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCctfIbo24UITlmfJbednOqA/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What lies are revealed in 'The Death of Innocence'?
Ladies and gentlemen, I had different plans for tonight's show, but then I was reading John and Patsy Ramsey's The Death of Innocence for our JonBenet Ramsey series, and I realized that this book is chock full of lies. Are you shocked? I'm not shocked at all.
See, I've been saying to you since it started seeming like it was more likely that it was John and Patsy Ramsey, in my opinion, since it seemed like that was more likely, I kept saying to you, I think that the truth is going to come out in their words. It's not going to be from the evidence, because just like we saw with Sebastian Rodgers, Pretty easy to distract the police.
You know, like they have a set of procedures they have to work through. If you can circumvent it, then you win. It doesn't matter if you just have really good lawyers like the Ramseys did, because the Ramsey lawyers managed to get their hands on every single piece of evidence the police had. Not from the police.
So the police department's there, and they're very confused about where all of this is coming from. It turns out down the line, through one of Thomas' informants, that it's D.A. Hunter who's leaking everything and has been leaking everything for basically 20 years. Um... So if you've got that much of an apparatus on your side, it's kind of easy to get away with this kind of thing.
Not necessarily easy, but it's possible. Sebastian Rogers, again, as I've said, the Sheriff's Department gave me a weird answer when I asked if Chris Proudfoot had friends in the Sheriff's Department, and he told me he's not friends with the Sheriff. That wasn't the question I asked. I sent a follow up email and it was never answered.
And then with the boy in the box, you know, with that one, it was so long ago and this baby was illegally adopted. He was purchased. You have fingerprinting, but literally nothing else. You know, at that time in history, it was a lot easier to get away with. But where it where it starts to come out is the stories from the family. It was Martha and the boy in the box's case.
She basically deliberately ratted out her parents with Sebastian Rogers. As you look more and more well, Nina, Nina comes forward and she's got a whole bunch of stories. And then you look through Chris and Katie's statements and none of them line up there. I shouldn't say none, but they don't make a ton of sense.
And then as I'm going through this, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, man, it's really weird that the morning of the disappearance, the story, there were these several contradictory stories. First, Patsy saw the note, and then she ran up to get, or sorry, first Patsy saw JonBenet wasn't there, then saw the note, then ran up to get Jon.
Then, when she talked to Arndt, it was, she went downstairs, saw the note, went to look on, look in on JonBenet, and then she, you know, screamed for her husband. So that was one contradiction within a few hours. Maybe, you know, look at that one. All right, sure. Maybe it's just that it was the morning of something horrible that had happened and she was genuinely just kind of frazzled.
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Chapter 2: How do the Ramseys distract police investigations?
She says, I hear John turning on the water in his bathroom and realize that it is still dark. We go down a little bit. Uh, nothing super important in the first six sentences, take a shower, get dressed, get going. I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken. Don't need one this morning. I think to myself, just put my clothes on.
And of course my makeup now ignoring the fact that I don't know why you'd put on a full face of makeup to go on a plane ride to Michigan or Minnesota. Sorry. Um, They're coming for us. I think that's a fire truck. Yeah.
I mean, the only thing I can think of is essentially if you're assuming that you're going to be going somewhere like lunch or something directly after the flight and not like to somewhere that you're going to stay.
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that one. I just think it's weird.
Yeah.
But, you know, here's what I think is especially weird. Aiden, can you do the thing where you put what's on your screen on that screen? Yes. Because I want to really drill down on this whole thing. Yeah. John turning on the water could mean a number of things. John could be shaving. John could be showering. John could be washing his face. John could be fixing his hair.
There are a number of possibilities as to what John could be doing in the bathroom. Right. That involved turning the water on. Aiden, if you are in a rush, say that it is 545 a.m. and you have to be at the airport that is 15 minutes away in 45 minutes. How long is your shower? If I'm showering, it's very short. Right. So assuming John was even showering, two to five minutes max, right? I think so.
Right, of course. Especially with a man with short hair. Yeah, of course. So, and he had short hair. Go ahead and put the Ramsey's third floor plan up on the screen for me.
It is about... It is reloading.
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Chapter 3: What contradictions exist in the Ramseys' statements?
But anyway, yeah, you know, so I grab the phone again from its cradle, dialing the whites this time. Jean Benet is missing, I yell into the phone. Please get over here. We need you. I hang up immediately and slump against the wall. Now, Aiden, do you recall from Friday's video what Fleet White said he was told?
Oh, he said he didn't know anything. He just said they needed him.
I'm over. That was it. Yeah. He wasn't told anything about what was going on. I don't think the Fernies were either. From what I read today from their interviews. That's a lie right there. And this wasn't written in the immediate aftermath. This wasn't written on December 27th. This was published in 2000. Three full years later. There was time to correct that.
There was time to make sure you had your information all in place. But what she's trying to do here is not, in my opinion, tell the true story. She's trying to construct a narrative that lines up. Problem is, she had the narrative line up with their stories and did not think about how she could make the narrative work for everybody else's stories.
Probably because she may not have known all of the details of everyone else's stories. A lot was handed over to the DA, who then handed it over to the Ramsey attorneys, which again, that's not a failure of the police. That's a failure of the DA. That is beyond the pale. You never do that. They weren't officially suspects yet. They had a defense team. They had PIs.
The cops don't have to share anything with the PIs. Especially when the PIs are actually going to witnesses before the cops even get there and interviewing them first. So why do the PIs need the cops interviews with the same people they'd already interviewed?
Great question.
That kind of stuff comes out during discovery. That's the stuff that comes up when you go to court. They basically gave the Ramsey attorneys the kind of access you have after you've been charged.
That's not normal. No, it's extremely not normal, especially considering that the vast majority of incidents in which an active investigation is going on Even if you're a suspect or not, you do not get to know the details of an ongoing investigation, especially if you're a potential suspect.
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Chapter 4: How does the ransom note impact the investigation?
Which, to be very clear, was how long after this incident? Four months. And what is the reason that they didn't do a proper interview? Well, hang on, to my understanding... The Ramseys kept refusing. Well, here's the thing, but they said they talked to the police.
Mm-hmm.
They said that they talked to the police early on, so they didn't understand why everybody kept saying that they didn't talk to the police.
Well, it's because when they did talk to the police, they didn't tell them anything about the night in question. They were like, oh, well, Patsy had cancer. It was hard. JonBenet is a pageant star. No, no, I can't talk about that right now. Look, Patsy was in no condition to be interviewed. If I had just lost my child, I would probably want to do nothing but talk to the police.
And give them as much information as possible to hopefully find my daughter. Yeah. Also, I mean, you're telling me that on December 27th, December 28th, you know, basically the entire first five days, Patsy is in no condition to talk to police. Who, by the way, traveled to Atlanta... tell the Ramseys they're traveling to Atlanta so that they can interview the Ramseys, right? The Ramseys know this.
So for five days, 26th through the 31st, Patsy's in no condition to talk to police. And then on January 1st, she gives an interview on CNN. in front of cameras, in front of the whole world, she is now comfortable to give an interview on CNN.
Well, clearly, you know, the police are like, oh, well, I mean, if she goes on CNN and she gives this interview and she says, you know, we want to help, we want to talk to the police. Steve Thomas even wrote in the book, he's like, you know, I was like, maybe we were wrong.
You know, maybe we had the wrong idea about the Ramseys, that their behavior wasn't suspicious, that they were just grieving parents and everybody reacts differently to grief. So they tell the Ramseys they're coming and they...
pester the da they're like hey they're willing to talk to you get the interview scheduled they fly to atlanta when they arrive in atlanta and they get ready to go talk to the ramses where are the ramses you know do you know i don't they're on a plane back to boulder so they knew the cops were coming they knew the cops had traveled across half the country to interview them
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Chapter 5: What inconsistencies are present in the police investigation?
Also, I'm sorry. I don't care how much you care about your appearance or how you look to other people. If your daughter's missing, your priority is not how you look that morning. Yeah. No, I don't think she ever makeup on that morning.
Yeah.
I think she had the makeup on already. No, that's my point. Is that if the presumption is that you went to bed, took your makeup off before you went to bed, got up, discovered that your child was missing, you're not then going to be motivated to put makeup on. You also aren't going to have time. No.
Because she called the cops at 5.52, called Barbara Fernie at 5.53, called Fleet White at 5.54, and then the police got there at 5.56.
And that seals the deal enough. But even if she had the time, I can't imagine any mother who loves their child the way that it is described she loved JonBenet that would even think about putting makeup on before finding their child.
Yep.
But Lunar Anarchy gave us $1.57. Thank you. TCF gave us a currency of $1,500 that I do not recognize. It's abbreviated ISK. Oh, wait, wait, wait. Sorry, I forgot about one more lie.
Got him out of the lie because it was so obvious. On the way home, JonBenet had fallen asleep in the back seat. This is Jon speaking. I got her out of the car and carried her upstairs to her room, laid her on her bed, and took off her coat and shoes. I was amazed at how sound asleep she was. It had been a long day for her. Patsy came in to finish getting JonBenet ready for bed.
The morning of, he told police he had read to both the children and they were both awake.
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