Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is a global production. This is the essential difference with Andy Burnham. He's normal. He can speak human.
Chapter 2: What are the main characteristics of Andy Burnham as a leader?
He's charismatic. So I could go on of the things where Andy Burnham has said one thing and now he's kind of in full-scale retreat as he, you know, he's become the MP for Makerfield and is the next Prime Minister.
Well, I don't think it will probably make the difference between saving the Labour Party from extinction...
We don't know what his plans are for defence or for welfare or for taxation. We don't know anything.
I don't feel sorry for a failed politician who's fucked it up. I'm afraid not. Thank you very much. Tattie bye. Farewell. It's been an absolute pleasure and a treat. And let us move on.
We haven't yet heard directly from Andy Burnham, but we're wondering if this is what the Andy Burnham premiership might soon start to sound like.
That is the Member of Parliament, Carl Turner, an ally of Andy Burnham. For all that we heard the bromides yesterday about we all owe Keir Starmer a great debt and we should be thankful to him, is this the authentic voice of what the Labour Party is thinking today? It's time to move on. Welcome to the Newsagents.
The Newsagents.
It's John. It's Maitlis. And we left you yesterday just before the King of the North had arrived at Westminster, before he was sworn in, before he hailed his arrival with a selfie in Westminster Hall, surrounded by 200 of his best mates, all the MPs that decided they wanted to literally get behind Andy Burnham.
One of those in the crowd was Rachel Reeves, the Chancellor who decided she would not appear outside her own front door, waving off the Prime Minister himself in his resignation speech. And overnight, we've also had a lot of correspondence from you, from our viewers, from our listeners, saying... Did you lot do all this? Is this the media's fault?
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Chapter 3: How does the media perceive the leadership transition in the Labour Party?
would mingle with members of the plp he had a certain few a few of his uh close people i was included in that to an extent um and there would be a few of us probably half a dozen on his mobile number and that would be it really and he would begrudge going into the tea room and sort of did he use it carl did you talk to him on i did actually and up to the point where he was well into his premiership probably 12 months in we would text each other regularly
And we had a good relationship until things started to go very badly. And for me, the thing was the jury trial concealment stuff, because I just thought that was the...
That was very late, though. Let's just go back a bit. Do you think you owe him your seat? Because he came in with this astonishing majority.
That didn't come out of nowhere, right? Well, the truth of that one is my majority went down under Keir Starmer's leadership in the 2024 general election. It'd gone up a bit under Corbyn, went back down, and then went down a bit again, I think, under Keir Starmer. So there was no love for Keir Starmer in my patch. It was strange, actually, because I was never a fan of Jeremy Corbyn.
But in some parts of my constituency, the parts where I would, not disparagingly, but I would describe them as the frothy coffee drinking guardian reading lefty liberal type of areas.
That doesn't sound remotely disparaging, no.
There's not very many of them, but there are a few little pockets. They love Jeremy. But universally, universally, Kia is disliked in my area.
Just explain this for me. And we were trying to talk about it a little bit earlier, which is I understand that people were dissatisfied, didn't think he was up to the job, all those things. But it went way further than that with Starmer. And I don't understand, or I struggle to understand, the profound antipathy there is towards him, kind of really hatred almost.
I think that's true, and it is surprising. I think what people spoke to with me regularly was the fact that he kept changing his mind. He promised one thing and then changed his mind. And I think the difficulty was he was making promises before he was the leader of the party, but... And with the advent of social media, that's the clips that are constantly used.
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Chapter 4: What criticisms are directed at Keir Starmer's leadership?
It made a decision which I thought was the wrong decision at the time, but it was a decision which he was absolutely determined to... But Carl, that's a nice story you just told about Burnham.
You haven't addressed John's question, which is we've just had the waspy women thing. You know, are you going to pay out to these women who think that they're demanding, you know, demand huge sums of money? And one day it was yes. And then 24 hours later, even less. Oh, my God. What am I walking into?
No way. Well, look, I would be careful if I was in what is essentially an election in a by-election, but when my audience is a bigger audience, i.e. the country. And that was his problem, I think. And I think that's why the team around him, Louise Haig and Annalise Midgley, were keeping him away from the press, probably, because it is a difficult scenario. You can say something...
in a leadership it's rather in a by-election which you're going to have to address once you're in number 10 and the reality was i think most people knew he was going to number 10 down his street whether it was due to the fact that he had won an election for leader or whether he was just sort of coronated which is where we are now
Carl, are you saying nice things about Andy Burnham now? Just because you're a politician and you know which side your bread is buttered, you might get the whip back. Isn't this just, people are going to be throwing things at the radio or the television listening to you in these terms?
John, I'm a socialist for a start and I think Burnham probably is as well. I don't think Keir was. I think the biggest frustration for me with Keir Starmer is you genuinely did not know what he believed in. You couldn't put your finger on what it was. If I went into a room with Keir and said, tell me what it is, he wouldn't be able to verbalise the stuff that was in his head.
But he could read it if somebody had written it down.
Karl, you know the joke that's going around, that the Blairit, the Brownite and the Corbynite walk into a bar and the barman says, what would you like, Mr Burnham?
Yeah, well, it is a joke which I tend to chuckle at when I hear it. But, look, he's got an ability to sort of speak to people in a way that others don't. I think he's got the Boris Johnson effect to a degree. And I think that matters. And let me explain a bit better. Do we need a contest? No, I don't think we do.
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Chapter 5: What unknowns exist about Andy Burnham's potential policies?
It ain't a fortune. And I think I would be very cautious to go down that road. So you're saying leave it alone? I think I would probably leave it alone. But he's talking about wealth taxes and other areas where you can tax, where it will be a fairer system. Look, I've got a pal who's a very wealthy guy. He's earned his money in the law.
He often says to me, why am I paying tax at a lower rate than my cleaning lady? And actually he is. I mean, he's paying an awful lot more. Of course he is. But he's paying at corporation rates. She's paying PAYE. And the rate is higher for her. It does seem unfair. And it wouldn't be too much money.
Our tax take in the country is 38%. And you know, Carl, you know there are plenty of people who are just waiting. For the next trigger to say, sod this, I'm off. I'm out of the country. I was creating wealth. I was creating jobs. I was creating investment. I was running a successful company. Sod that, frankly. I can do it somewhere else.
I think you're right. And that is the worry. Look, I mean, this stuff with the NI increases for employers. It was a balmy idea. And when the Tories say this is a tax on jobs, I'm in the back benches nodding, saying it's a tax on jobs. People come to me, businesses, not for profits.
And the minimum wage? I mean, you know, I've got kids who are in their 20s who say the minimum wage has stopped them getting jobs now in hospitality. They can't even walk into a bar and serve pints because it's much harder now for kids to get jobs.
My view is Andy should be looking at that, actually, which is not very Labour. it will upset Parliamentary Labour Party members. But I think when the minimum wage for a younger person is similar to an adult person,
Yeah, to your chef or to your pot washer or to somebody who's... I think you've got a problem.
Right. I think you've got a problem. And I think that does... And people need to get a job. I left school at 16 without a qualification to be named, but I was grafting from the age of 13, collecting glasses. I'd have been on half as much as what the barmaid or barman was earning, but it gave me the opportunity to get grafting and it, you know, it stood me in good stead.
We'll hear more from Carl Turner in a moment.
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Chapter 6: How do allies of Burnham view his leadership style?
I got a phone call the other day, gobsmackingly. I won't say the MP, it wouldn't be fair. But a member of Parliament rang me and said, look, if you don't fancy justice, will you put the word in for me? I mean, goodness me. I said, how do you think he would be if I was to ring Burnham and say, what about justice for X? It's bonkers. And he doesn't do his business like that, by the way.
I don't think he'll be dishing out promises for jobs. That would surprise me if he is.
So you don't think he's offered West Street anything to put out the race?
I don't think he has. I think there'll be discussions with Louise Haig. And Wes. I think there was discussions with Louise and other MPs prior to him finding the by-election seat. Ed Miliband for Chancellor? Well, I hope not. Believe it or not, I'm sort of controversial in the sense that I'd very much like Rachel Reeves to stay on, frankly.
I think if you've got a problem where the markets are going to wobble, potentially, I think you keep the Chancellor. I don't think it's her fault when things have gone wrong. The Prime Minister is the first load to the Treasury, not Rachel.
But you've just said, why would you put in the NICs on businesses? Or why would you put in the minimum wage?
That was a mistake. And the leadership matters from number 10. You know, that is the problem we've had. I was in Downing Street speaking with Keir in his private quarters before Christmas last year. And he was telling me directly the mistakes that I was reeling off were... were number 11's mistakes. And I said to him, in frustration, what on earth are you talking about? You are the gaffer.
What are we doing this for? You're in charge. And the reality was, Keir was never really in charge. What was his reaction to that? Look, I had a relationship with him where... I could speak directly. Other people would... I just want to know what he said. He was fine with it. We discussed that. I'd gone there with one single purpose, which was to tell him to sack Mark Sweeney.
He didn't like that very much, to be honest. He told me that that was not going to happen. I left him with a list of things what I think he needed to do to improve, one of which was talking to the PLP. I suggested media interviews where I think he could do well to tell his own story. And I suggested a few other things.
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Chapter 7: What impact does Burnham's leadership have on the Labour Party's future?
Go and get the nominations. But don't put this woman in just because. Yeah, but just go back to the original question. I think it's outrageous.
You are. I mean, there is a sense of momentum here, which is bigger than the kind of the question of reality. Right. He's going to. I mean, I know that in Starmer's team, they are saying that Starmer's played a blinder by saying, yes, I'm out of here. before September, and they described Burnham as hoping that they would have the summer for, and I quote, a plan and a tan. They don't have that.
They don't have a summer. They don't have a plan.
Well, I don't think that's right. Look, there's been commissions, policy commissions going on behind the scenes for the last few months, six months at least. And I think those commissions will produce documents which give evidence Burnham as the new PM, a direction on day one of walking into number 10 Downing Street.
With a damaged party that's sort of woken up today going, what on earth have we just done? I mean, you know, even if they felt that the Starmer Premiership wasn't going in the right direction, there will be that sense of kind of poison in the air now, won't there?
No, I don't think there will. I think it'll be a positive effect. I think, you know, I'm going to give you the scenario which... i think of regularly you know when the chief whip is coming to me saying stop giving it loads on juries or else i look at the polling in eastall and i think well i'm anyway how can you tell me what to do Button it. You mean because of reform?
Well, because people voted 74% leaving Eastall in 2016. You know, with Keir's leadership, it was inevitable that I was going to get absolutely smashed. So the whip has you in and says, stop doing the gobbing off about the jury stuff. It's a flagship policy. Button it. I say, no, I'm not buttoning it because it's a stupid idea. And by the way, my polling suggests I'm absolutely fucked anyway.
That's the problem we've had. People are looking at their own seats and thinking, I quite like being an MP, to be honest.
I get all of that. And you think you've saved your seat now?
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Chapter 8: What are the implications of the recent political changes for the public?
Yeah. Really. Because as far as I know, she wasn't going into Number 10 and saying to Keir, come on, pack your bag, son. You've got to go. I don't think that was happening. But the hypocrisy of yesterday on that photograph was looking at these people who had been telling Keir to stick to his guns and dig his heels in. We're all crowding around Burnham, desperate for a job.
It's like, for goodness sake, please. And then poor old David Lammy, bless his corn socks, out today saying, you what, I've always, you what, Burnham, I've always thought you'd be a brilliant prime minister.
LAUGHTER
Just outrageous. Can you understand why the public might not have a very high opinion of politics and politicians?
Absolutely true. I mean, that is the truth. And I think things will change. I mean, this is real optimism to think that Andy Burnham can change the way people feel about politics and politicians. I doubt it, if I'm being honest. But people do appreciate honesty. You know, I've stopped reading the Parliamentary Labour Party briefing about 2010.
You know, if I'd have been reading that, I'd have been on here saying, have I got my lines right? It's just a nonsense. People see through it. You've got to say what you think and do what you've said you're going to do. And that's the problem Keir's never managed to be able to do. Because I don't think Keir Starmer knows what he thinks. I don't know what his politics are.
And you think Burnham knows what he thinks? I think Burnham knows his politics. I think he's probably on the soft left of the party. Similar politics to myself. And, you know, I think he has a record of changing things for the better in Manchester. A recent example. And he does have a plan to bring that model down to Westminster. Devolution's an important part of his stuff.
That's the stuff that he ought to be concentrating. You can build from the manifesto. You'd have to go to the country just because it's not entirely in the manifesto. You know, it's the stuff, the basic points are in that manifesto. You can build from it.
And I think, I think he'd probably go to the country early, but I don't think he needs to go in 25 minutes after moving into number 10 Downing Street.
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