Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
My name is Thomas Gibesneff. I'm a journalist at the New York Times. I served in the Marine Corps as an infantryman. When it comes to reporting on the front line, I think nothing is more important than talking to the people involved, hearing their stories and being able to connect that with people thousands of miles away.
Anything that can make something like this more personal, I think, is well worth the risk. New York Times subscribers make it possible for us to keep doing this vital coverage. If you'd like to subscribe, you can do that at nytimes.com slash subscribe. This is The Opinions, a show that brings you a mix of voices from New York Times opinion. You've heard the news. Here's what to make of it.
I'm Michelle Cottle. I cover national politics for New York Times Opinion. And this week, I am joined by the usual suspects, columnists Jamel Bowie and David French. Guys, good to see you. I trust you're staying warm in all of this.
Well, Michelle, I am in New Hampshire, whereas we record as a balmy six degrees, which, believe it or not, is warmer than it was in parts of the time when I was in Nashville and warmer than it's been in parts of Chicago. So I'm enjoying the weather. Jamel, what about you? How's Virginia? It's like 20 degrees. It's a little warmer, but it's icy. You should be in short sleeves outside.
I don't, you know, even in the summer, I don't wear short sleeves. I spent two hours yesterday with an ice pick trying to get the ice off of my driveway. So very exciting. Oh, well done. All right. But today we're going to look at the icy confrontation in Minnesota where, you know, we're looking at the wake of the shooting deaths of Alex Preddy and Renee Good.
And we're going to talk about specifically how the Trump administration is scrambling to do some damage control. Now, of course, we were recording this on Thursday morning. Some things are almost certain to have changed, gone sideways, I don't know, flipped, inverted by the time you hear this.
The last week has been especially fraught in the country, and folks are feeling like there's a tipping point coming for the Trump administration's maximalist immigration plans. So first, I want to know, what do you guys think? Is there actually change in the air? I think you got to look at this two ways. First, on the ground.
On the ground, it's clear that the administration isn't really pulling back. There's been this talk of a new tone, of a new approach, but they're still snatching people off the street. They're still using intimidating tactics. They're still doing this stuff. They're still using ICE less as immigration enforcement and more. as sort of a secret police harassing people. So that hasn't changed.
But the other way, the other kind of perspective to look at is just a larger political perspective. And looking at things in Washington, I think it is quite clear that the administration is on the back foot, that the response, especially to the killing of Alex Paredes, but really both Good and Paredes and them happening so close together, I think, really surprised the administration.
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Chapter 2: What recent events sparked bipartisan criticism of ICE?
And in hindsight, if you're looking with that 30,000-foot view— What so many people made a mistake about on January 7th and 8th and 9th and 10th was thinking he'd absorbed this really tremendous defeat. His true colors had been displayed to the whole world.
And instead of pouring into the breach and MAGA lines, so to speak, and moving with extreme ferocity to exploit the weakness that was so obvious in the Trump administration at that point, a lot of times it was sort of like, aha! Now politics is going to work.
And I'm still upset that, for example, when the momentum was there, the impeachment drive still was not pushed with the speed and the necessary vigor, the slow, slow, slow criminal investigations. A lot of it was because people had thought, well, now we see, now we know. And I just don't want to get into that mindset in Minnesota where we think, now we see, now we know. It's much more like,
There's a weakness here. They have overreached.
Chapter 3: How is the Trump administration responding to immigration tensions?
They have overstretched. And now is the time to redouble efforts. So let me just jump in and ask if there is a difference this time because of the political landscape right now. So post-January 6th, Trump was out of office. The Republicans were feeling like, well, maybe we just humor him right now and then he goes away. Nobody thinks that anymore. And
For the longest, Republicans have been operating on the assumption that their only risk politically to their fortunes is if they don't back Trump enough. In this case, they are seeing from this public reaction the potential downsides to having hitched their wagon to this authoritarian nightmare. And so you do see people... in Congress pushing back.
So I'm just wondering if because the kind of landscape is so different this time, people are kind of approaching it more cautiously, but with more seriousness? I think that is the question. I agree with David very much that there was this moment of opportunity after January 6th to put the stake in the heart of MAGA, to really knock out Trump as a viable political figure.
But it required sort of a quick, aggressive action, right? And they didn't do it, I think, for exactly the reasons that David described, that there is like this sense that, oh, well, this is so egregious that we know how American politics works and so egregious that like he'll just fade away. And there was a real lack of understanding. I think that that's actually not how American politics works.
Chapter 4: What signs indicate a potential change in immigration policy?
It's not how it's ever worked. And if you want to defeat someone, you actually have to defeat them in a proactive way. And the question, I think, for this moment is whether or not Trump's opponents, and especially Trump's opponents in the Democratic Party, understand this.
And I think that there are prominent and important voices in the Democratic Party, especially in Congress, who are still wedded to this very, this old model of what they think American politics is, where something terrible happens and everyone agrees that the other side is bad or is in the wrong. And that's just not the case. And so that's like the big question of the political moment. Like, do...
people actually understand what David is describing in terms of what needs to be done. All right, so let's talk about the Democrats' reaction in Congress, which is where they have a little bit of leverage right now. The immediate plan seems to be to block DHS funding, if necessary, even forcing a partial shutdown, unless and until some guardrails are put on ice.
I mean, do you guys think this is practical, sensible, ridiculous? What? I mean, I think if the Democrats don't take strong action— It's a big problem for them. Look, and it needs to be strong, but it also needs to be something that can really reach and persuade sort of the normie voters who are tuning in right now and not liking what they're seeing. And so I think a very direct...
no masks, no immunities, no home invasions. In other words, like, if you're looking at all of these things that are the real hallmarks of, you know, what are the things that are tyrannizing our communities, and just saying no to each one of these things in a way, and make the Republican Party come out there and defend masked police. Make the Republican Party go out there and defend
administrative warrants that are not... Well, shooting somebody because they show up at a protest with a gun? Come on. The right's going to defend that. They might say, oh, well, I don't defend that shooting, but I want ICE to have full freedom. No, no. Make them defend all of these things that are grossly unconstitutional. Make them defend, for example...
shackling and detaining lawful refugees who have done nothing wrong at all and sending them down for detention in Texas for a reexamination of their case. So I think you have your list of the most reasonable demands. which in any constitutional republic should be completely acceptable, and then make the Republicans defend the indefensible. Yeah, I agree completely.
I think the political task is, yeah, to make Republicans defend masked agents, masked paramilitaries, really, and the use of administrative warrants, I think. I'm glad you pointed that out, David. That is forcing ICE to or CBB to get actual judicial warrants to conduct arrests may seem minor. But first of all, it puts like a real limit on what they can do because that takes time.
And second of all, it helps ordinary Americans defend their rights. On the left, there is real ridicule for the idea that you should like – impose any new training requirements, but I think you can actually use training requirements to, again, reduce the speed at which ICE can operate. If you require them to double the length of training, make it like 180 days, right?
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Chapter 5: How are public sentiments impacting Trump's immigration agenda?
Guys, I've been in far more dangerous situations when I was in Iraq than have happened on the streets of Minneapolis. I know what it's like when young, very disciplined Americans are exposed to extreme violence. And we didn't act like that. So, you know, this sort of idea that ICE has no choice but to be so aggressive when all of these people are blowing whistles and blocking them in the road.
Spare me, spare me. I mean, I have seen younger Americans in far more dangerous situations, infinitely more dangerous situations, exercise far more restraint and compassion and discipline than we're seeing. So this is not just, oh, pundits, divorced from reality. No, no, no, no. I want everyone to realize you can deal with far more dangerous situations with far less force than we're seeing.
I know this, I've seen this with my own eyes. And so, yeah, it's just when you see these videos and you have experience dealing with more dangerous situations, trust me, it's more shocking. I wanna say one more thing about the training thing, just to, I think, clarify my position here, which is that I actually do not think it is possible
to do any kind of training that will change the character of this agency. ICE has always had this kind of reputation for brutality. ICE has always been the subject of real criticism about its operations. I think that when you look at what Miller and Trump want out of the agency, even with new training requirements, they're still going to be looking for basically
goonish men to participate in this process is. So for me, I think the goal here, the end point to looking five years down the road is that ICE doesn't exist anymore, that we find some other way to do immigration enforcement that does not rely on paramilitaries, that does not rely on these like staged raids, that does not rely on this construct of
undocumented immigrants are a existential threat to the United States. And so any force we use to get rid of them is acceptable. No, none of that.
And so for me, all of this stuff is really kind of like, it's like a holding maneuver while you try to get the political power necessary to, again, do something fundamental about this agency, fundamental about the Department of Homeland Security, fundamental about Customs and Border Protection.
Okay, but I think we're all in agreement we're not going to come out in support of the whole abolish ICE as a mantra. That just seems like it's a disaster politically because it lacks the nuance. Are we all in agreement? You think that's great? I mean... I don't love that. I don't abolish ICE.
Even if you want to remake the agency, the idea of that being anything other than catnip for the right, who is then going to pitch it as, well, they don't want any kind of enforcement. No borders. No borders, no nothing. Two things. First is that I'm not a political strategist. I don't have a sense of how effective a slogan abolish is.
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Chapter 6: What strategies are being discussed for the Democratic Party?
I love The Boss. I've been listening to him forever. So I'm a huge fan of The Boss. I just really have gotten back into the Nebraska album after the recent movie. Great, great album. I've never been a giant protest music guy. You know, maybe that's that sort of my inner conservative. I'm just like, uh, don't know. Don't know. Sometimes it feels more like virtue signaling than something real.
However, I will say this. The thing that I think I keep looking at is what's breaking through into sort of normie land. And I don't use the term normie in a derogatory way at all. I just want to say that we're the strange ones, okay? The ones who are like every day online. And so often we look at something and we go, where's the outrage in America? Do you remember the Bob Dole?
Where's the outrage in America? And everyone's looking at it going, I don't know what you're talking about to be angry at it. Like, I don't know about this. And so when I see things like this song from somebody who's, you know, of course, one of the classic American artists, I think these things are breaking through. Because you don't,
Honestly, you don't get more mainstream in American music than The Boss. I mean, he's always been on the left, but he's a super, super mainstream American artist. And this shows, and I think to me, this shows that this stuff is resonating around the country. People know, people are aware.
So I completely agree that anything that takes these issues out of the realm of cable talk shows and, God save us, the Twitterati, and puts it into more cultural mainstream sites or discussions is a good thing. Like, the way Trump gets away with what he does is that most people – don't, they just tune a lot of this stuff out. I'm not going to go all music critic on this.
I'll just say that as somebody who's constantly hectoring people to use their voice in whatever way they can to respond to what's going on in the country, if Bruce wants to do this, good for him. He's got a bigger platform and megaphone than most. Oh, I mean, to be clear, this is just an aesthetic thing for me.
Like, you know, music is a very important part of building social solidarity, building, you know, connection between people involved in the movement. I'm currently reading this wonderful book, Waging a Good War, a military history of the civil rights movement by Tom Ricks. And he...
observes that in training for, you know, sit-ins, marches, demonstrations, civil rights participants would, they would sing together. And it was a very important part of kind of like building group cohesion.
Just in my own personal experience doing stuff when I was like a student, like student government stuff or whatnot, you know, we would sing, you know, you sing, you do chants, you do sing songs on sports teams. Like that's an important part of of building connection. And so if music can do that, and I think music does do that from like all the more, you know, do it, go ahead.
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