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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Pat Kenny Show. With Timber Living Log Cabins. Saturday and Sunday from 10am. On Newstalk. Conversation that counts.
We are four games into the expanded World Cup with the first results already, I think, offering a glimpse into what promises to be a fascinating six-week tournament across the US, Mexico and Canada.
But while the football has finally begun, debate continues over empty stadiums, soaring ticket prices, the tournament's unprecedented scale and the influence of FIFA President Gianni Infantino and the US President Donald Trump on the event's direction. I'm delighted to say that Miguel Delaney, chief football writer with The Independent, joins me now on the line.
And Miguel, you have been writing about this recently and you said that the tournament is just too big to get a feel for. What do you think now? Has the football finally taken over?
Chapter 2: What are the initial impressions of the expanded World Cup?
Well, I wouldn't say it's necessarily not to get a feel for it. It's more, I suppose, the size of it just dilutes what the World Cup used to be. And even on basic terms, I mean, like a classic of when you were a child, and to be honest, even into adulthood, you very quickly internalise who's in what group. You've got to reel them off in an instant. This one is almost too big for that.
And I suppose for a lot of people, there's almost this experience of, you don't necessarily know who's playing on a given day because there's so many games. And I almost think Saturday is the kind of real start of this World Cup because there are four games. It's wall-to-wall football. Brazil play their first match. Scotland play, that'll be by Sunday morning, by the end.
And I suppose from that, it's a different experience. But to agree, I did write this in my preview, to be fair.
Chapter 3: What controversies surround the World Cup's ticket pricing and empty stadiums?
The World Cup is still the World Cup. Once the football takes off, people are drawn into storylines. You can't get a book get captivated by it. On the other side of that, FIFA obviously makes a calculation that once the football starts, all the pre-game issues go away. I don't necessarily think that's the
case, though, A, because I suppose they've written that there's so much, there's so many politics swirling around this, not least how the Democrats almost see FIFA as a fragile or a vulnerable point for Donald Trump because of the proximity, but also because some of these issues have continued right in.
I mean, at the Korea-Czech Republic game, which I suppose had a bit of an interest for Ireland, given the checks that knocked us out, of the qualifiers. There were swathes of empty seats and this after so much controversy over ticket prices.
And then you've got this new controversy, which speaks to a lot of the issues around this World Cup and just how much of it has been about revenue and just how greedy FIFA have become, which is, I know there's been a bit of it in Ireland, but it's so conspicuous here in the US, which is ads during the water breaks for games.
And actually, we discussed this. I was on the Clare Byrne programme yesterday and we discussed this at length because it is being spoken about in Ireland. And I was sitting watching on Thursday night the Mexico-South Africa game and I thought, OK, good atmosphere in this stadium. Not bad football, bit of controversy, three red cards, two goals, not great football, but you know. Not awful.
And then suddenly we had this stoppage, 25 minutes in for a water break and then the ads. And I actually left the room and I kind of forgot the game was on and by the time it came back in I'd missed 10 minutes and I thought, there we have it. That's why the commercial aspect and the commercial controversies won't go away for the duration of this World Cup.
Yeah, and even America here, I have to say, I mean, first of all, is really conspicuous on Fox, which is showing the majority of the games, I think. And for only the second water break here, they came back after the football has started, which is inevitably going to happen just because of the way these things go. And it would serve people right if they missed the goal or something like that.
And also, despite, I suppose, an expectation that American audiences would be used to this, given, you know, sometimes with basic half-hour TV shows, there's four commercials,
break in that time there's been real fury about it because I think it's just it is even before you get to anti-football arguments which I think it is there's also a bit of basic experience where it just takes you out of the game and like in the second half in particular given it's 22 minutes in let's get into the crunch point of a match especially if it's tight it takes you out of it and it does change the rhythm of the game as well
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Chapter 4: How has the size of the tournament affected viewers' experiences?
Yeah, it definitely did change the flow, the rhythm, the emotional connection of the game. But the argument being put forward by FIFA is that these players are playing in high temperatures. Some of the matches will be over 30 degrees and there's a player welfare element here. Do you buy that?
but that's an evasive argument though because I mean no one is saying players shouldn't have water breaks I mean we had them in like the 2014 World Cup Louis van Gaal famously used them to make a tactical change and swing a game against Mexico for the Netherlands and It's the fact the brakes themselves are being used for commercials.
So if you're watching on TV at home, it literally takes you out of it, given people are leaving the room, but also it cuts away from the stadium. If they were standing there for two minutes and you were still seeing the live scene, that's different, because you're still absorbing the game. There's still discussion going on.
But if you take it out for, as here in America, yet another ad featuring Christian Pulisic or David Beckham, like it's... It's not the feel of a World Cup game.
And you'd wonder as well, if you get to the final or the semifinals, these really epic, intense games, where you are getting to historic stakes of that, and you're cutting away again for an ad for Lay's Crisps or something like that, it's not what this is supposed to feel like.
No, and we're not complete purists, but there was that really uncomfortable moment on Fox where the presenter said, this hydration break is brought to you by Gatorade, which just, I think, gave real football fans like you and me the absolute ick. I mean, you've written about Trump's relationship with Gianni Infantino.
How do you see Trump's influence in this tournament in terms of how it's been organised and how it's being presented?
Look, he kind of weighs over everything because I suppose one erratic decision from Trump could basically cause chaos.
Now, from speaking to people around FIFA and all that, they would say chaos has actually been caused by almost a lack of decision from Trump because FIFA's argument of why Infantino is so craven to him, why he's always at Trump events, why he's in the Oval Office more than any kind of political leader, is basically that because of Trump's personality, he needs to be kind of played to all the time.
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Chapter 5: What role do FIFA and Trump play in the World Cup's organization?
Which one of those do you think is most damaging to FIFA and to the game of football?
I mean, I would have been tempted to say the empty seats, just because of the picture that painted. There's a lot of them from the Korea-Czech game. I suppose the greater frustration there is that we know that had Ireland qualified, those seats would have been filled. I think Ireland would have had a decent chance, although Korea were good, to be fair. But I think...
It already feels this commercial break issue during the hydration breaks, it's growing and growing. And the fact there's fury about it in America, where FIFA would have presumed that this is just accepted, that feels a little bit of a change. And this comes amid kind of... There's kind of wider dynamics going on here with Infantino and FIFA.
Look, one of the reasons FIFA are taking these decisions, one of the reasons that Infantino spoke the way he did in what I thought was such a brazen manner in his pre-World Cup press conference. Actually, it wasn't really a press conference given he barely took any testing questions. I think it's because he's felt so secure in power.
And there has been kind of almost a Trump aspect to it in the way he speaks, the way he rambles, the way he's evidently facing very little resistance. But there is a sense from speaking to people in football politics that this is actually starting to change, that a lot of different federations, they're quite uneasy about it.
Well, they have been uneasy the way this has been going under Infantino's leadership. And now it's like a lot around the World Cup is pushing this. And I think it could finally bring a challenger.
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Do you get the sense that all of these controversies are actually damaging Infantino's chances of being re-elected?
Well, look, the way FIFA politics works is, I suppose this is infamous by now, it's one country, one vote, regardless of size. That is kind of further... Sorry, the purer democratic principles of that are further compromised by the fact that... FIFA has this redistribution system where all the money generated from the World Cup is spread back around the game. Now it's called the FIFA 4 program.
And so countries like Vanuatu, who are often mentioned as an example, They might be struggling for finance. FIFA basically gives them, as part of this, the redistribution program, gives them a lot that is game-changing for the country. And in normal circumstances, that would be quite noble. In these circumstances, it just means this system is basically a vote-returning mechanism.
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Chapter 6: How do commercial breaks during games impact the viewing experience?
Qatar was the most controversial World Cup in history. Actually, the World Cup, I'd say, was the most moral issues in history, given it couldn't be staged without what human rights groups would call slave labour. And yet, what people actually remember in the course of time is Messi winning it, that final, and all the storylines around it.
The same will happen here, but it doesn't mean there isn't another side to the World Cup that we should be considering.
And keep in mind when we're watching. All right, Miguel Delaney, thank you so much for speaking to us here on The Pat Kenny Show.
Thank you.