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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Pat Kenny Show. With timber living log cabins. Saturday and Sunday from 10am on Newstalk. Conversation that counts.
We're coming to you this morning from the beautiful surroundings of Avondale in County Wicklow. It's the first show of Newstalk's Summer Tour 2026 with thanks to ESB, the largest EV charging network. I'm joined now by Patrick Gagan, historian and presenter of Talking History and director of the Trinity Long Room Hub. Patrick, good morning and welcome. Good morning, Pat. Wonderful to be here.
When you come here, do you feel, to borrow from Tony Blair, the hand of history heavy on your shoulder?
Chapter 2: What historical context surrounds Charles Stewart Parnell's legacy?
I do, but I'm also amazed every time I come here at just how modern it is now and how great it is for kids. And I was sending my wife pictures and saying, we have to come back here in the summer.
Yeah. Now tell me about the man himself. Will you sort out Parnell or Parnell?
He would have gone by Parnell and sometimes older scholars still use Parnell. But truthfully, I always use Parnell now because otherwise your students think you're just making a mistake.
Or being posh or something. Exactly.
now tell me about the man himself i mean i mentioned earlier that he inherited the house because he was the younger son uh this was a change in tradition i suppose it was the way samuel hayes wanted it he gave it to parnell's father because he was a younger son and i think it was that he wanted something different and not just to be rewarding the eldest in the family
And this was a crucially important place for Parnell's identity. It shaped his identity. He loved coming here. It also was useful for his political meetings as well. One time he wanted to outmanoeuvre Michael Davitt, so he brought him here in 1882 and arranged a deal that completely outmanoeuvred Davitt on the land question. Now, what informed his politics?
Well, there was always debates about that in the 1880s because people couldn't understand how this wealthy Protestant from this landed estate was this leading Irish nationalist. And some thought it was because his mother was American and she was believed to have Fenian sympathies. But of course, there was always a Protestant tradition in Irish nationalism. And I think Parnell was part of that.
And I think he was shaped by a view that Ireland and its future would be better suited by having its own parliament. And so when he entered parliament, he became one of these radical thinkers and obstructionist leader of the movement then, and someone who was really able to hold the balance of power at Westminster and force the leaders of the day to do what he wanted.
But in terms of his thinking, I mean, he was the owner of, it has to be said, quite a large estate.
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Chapter 3: How did Parnell's upbringing influence his political identity?
But then even during the big debates over Brexit when Jacob Rees-Mogg was leader in the Commons and everyone remembers that famous picture of him reclining on the benches and pretending to be asleep because he was blocking the Remainers from taking control of the legislative agenda.
He accused those Remainers of doing the worst job at bunging up Parliament since the days of Charles Stuart Parnell.
So his legacy remains, his parliamentary legacy remains. Now, in terms of what he achieved, what can we say that was definitely achieved by Charles Stuart Parnell?
I think there was a major, I think the great land reforms were made possible because he brought together the physical force tradition, he brought together the land movement, and he brought together the parliamentary movement under this great new cause called the New Departure. And that was incredibly radical for the time.
And it made that he was able to put pressure on the British government in Parliament, outside of Parliament, with that little hint of danger with the physical force tradition. And, of course, then he was able to get a British Prime Minister, Gladstone, to support Home Rule. Now, we know it didn't pass. A second attempt didn't pass.
A third attempt passed in 1912, but it was delayed until 1914 and then delayed further because of the First World War. But he did change the nature of the discussion of Ireland's future at Westminster.
Now, his difficulties, you talk about bringing the physical force tradition along with the, if you like, a more democratic tradition. But at one point he had to more or less get himself jailed, didn't he?
Well, things did get heated and there was pressure on him because when you had the murder of the chief secretary and the undersecretary by the invincibles,
people in Britain thought people in the government thought Parnell was involved and there were some who saw him as a terrorist Winston Churchill saw him as a young man and later wrote about him and was amazed at Parnell's character and the enigma how for some he was the constitutional nationalist but for others he was and he used the word terrorist and so it was dangerous he was walking this very fine line in the 1880s but in my mind he was always very much on the constitutional side but when he
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Chapter 4: What were the significant political strategies employed by Parnell?
once he was able to do so, once the divorce came through.
He did marry her and he left her Avondale in his will but unfortunately when he died there seems to have been some kind of legal technicality and so she did not inherit it and it went to his older brother who refused to give Catherine anything and there you see the bitterness continuing as well.
So his untimely death, he was a young man-ish when he died, brought about by his own travels and not minding himself.
Yes, and I think the stress, the anxiety, having to travel around for the big election campaign, but he also became increasingly angry and kind of bitter in his language and his denunciations. And I think it was an incredibly, horribly stressful time. And I think it did lead to his untimely death. Of course, this month, this year, is I think the 180th anniversary of his birth.
So it is a wonderful time to be at Avondale. But he died before his time in 1891. And he died a broken man, having divided the country, having divided his movement. And all because of a love relationship that... Now, looking back on it, it should never have been an issue.
And yet, in spite of the divisions, it greatly celebrated. I mean, the state, which would have been still the British state, bought the house in 1904. And I think that shows the respect that was there for him.
Neville Chamberlain spoke about him just before the outbreak of the Second World War, where he said that of all the political figures he'd ever seen in his life or heard about, that Parnell had the greatest ability to say exactly what he wanted to say in the fewest amount of words.
And there was an admiration for him, but others in Britain and in the establishment, they actually saw him as a kind of an apologist for terrorism and they saw him as a scoundrel who publicly denounced the bombings in London and the attempts by the IRB to have these bombing campaigns And even though Parnell would denounce them, they thought that actually secretly he was supporting them.
So that's why you have things like the Piggott forgeries and these Parnellisms. This was an attempt to link him to the Invincibles. An attempt to link him to the Invincibles, to the IRB, to claim that actually he was the political spokesperson for a terrorist movement. And there was a huge public inquiry in a commission and he was completely vindicated.
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