Chapter 1: What are the current concerns about science funding in the US?
The Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk.
Well, I'm joined in studio by Luke O'Neill, Professor of Biochemistry at Trinity College in Dublin. And Luke, I know last week we touched briefly on your trip to America, but you've been thinking about it a lot, about the upending of science in America. Yeah, there was a big thing in The Economist, Pat, very timely, because I was there a couple of weeks ago.
Trump is dismantling science in America, is the view of The Economist anyway, but there is evidence for this. Slashing funding, you know, stacking committees, advisory committees, there's consternation. And when I was over there, I couldn't get over how they were all in bits, basically, you know, really complaining about the whole thing. So it's a big fear.
I mean, they're cutting pretty much everything that might be useful going forward, and even stuff that we depended upon in the past. Yeah. Undermining. Undermining. There's a $30 billion cut in science funding in America overall, which is a lot of money. And you can imagine, in fact, the scientists are saying, oh, look, we can't do our jobs, you know.
And then younger scientists are leaving their profession because of this lack of support. But, of course, Pat, he's picked two areas that he doesn't want to fund. Renewables. And vaccines. If you work in those areas and you're in America, you're persona non grata, basically. So the two big ones that I'm most worried about. Now, you can point to RFK Jr.
as the architect, I suppose, of the anti-vaccine movement. And Trump has just gone along with them. I mean, how many measles outbreaks will it take before they see sense? Well, here's the evidence. They see science loves evidence for things, and they sometimes deny the evidence, but it's the biggest measles outbreak since 1991 in America at the moment.
So measles is now spreading, which is disastrous because it's a very dangerous disease. And the economists did a calculation. For everybody with measles, it costs the health system $140,000. And a vaccine prevents it. So you can see where that logic goes. Cheap as chips, you'll stop having to spend that amount of money per patient.
But the fact is, children are now getting measles again in America. Now remember, 10% will be severely affected, end up in hospital, deafness. The main cause of deafness in the 50s and 60s in Ireland was measles. So again, this is causing absolute worries. And the ongoing cost of treating people with deafness and in the hope that stem cells will reverse it sometime. But that's
research will also be stopped. That's also been stopped. And the big one, Pat, that they're really annoyed about is in America and in Europe, we give children about 12, 13, 14 vaccines and we know what they are in their infancy. The Americans have cut that to seven. So RFK Jr. has stacked the committee on vaccine advice and now they've gone from 13 shot of vaccines to seven.
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Chapter 2: How is Trump's administration impacting vaccine research?
Now, the other area is the green area. And we know that, you know, he wants to... As well as drill, baby, drill. He wants to dig, baby, dig. Dig that coal out of the ground. And the coal people have got a real boost. And the green sector has been slashed. So here's the statistics on this. Solar research has been cut by 31%. Wind by 29%. But coal research is 260% increase in research funding.
So if you're a coal scientist, you're living in clover at the moment in America. If you're into renewables of any kind, you're in trouble because you can't get funding to support your research. And these are the stark numbers that are emerging. You sent me a quote from Chris Wright, the fossil fuel executive who's now the energy secretary.
He said that calling carbon dioxide a pollutant is just nuts. The bigger risk, he says, is not too much CO2, but too little. Yeah, and he's denying the science is the problem here. The overall problem, Pat, is they're not looking at all the science. Now, there will be some evidence for what he says, by the way. You get to a consensus.
The vast consensus is CO2 is bad for the planet, you know, and renewables will help sort of prevent the CO2 emissions. But you're right on that. That guy, Pat, he's extremely important. He's very senior. So Trump has put him in, you see.
to be the key advisor and then that's his opinion on this that's very very damaging the advisory committee on immunization practices makes uh vaccine recommendations and it was completely reconstituted with duds yep that's right yeah well four four committees were what he's doing if they're disbanding the advisory committees on these things that have been there for decades or they're putting people in there who are vaccine skeptics now that
It's OK to have scepticism. You know, we like it as scientists. It's very important.
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Chapter 3: What evidence supports the rise of measles outbreaks in America?
And one particular guy, again, who's a very senior guy, and his name is Kirk Milhoun. He said, I don't like established science. That's his quote. Now, he's very senior on the Vaccine Advisory Committee to the US government. Now, you have someone like that in the room. Other scientists are trying to counter what he says, of course. But he's a very dominant voice in the whole thing.
And if he can't trust established science, why can't he trust it? He says, science is what I observe. Yeah, exactly. That's right, yes, which goes against the whole principle of science in the first place. And he cast doubt on the necessity for polio vaccines and measles vaccines. I mean, this guy's crazy. It's crazy. And then he's so powerful.
And of course, what's happening there is they're saying, look, if Trump and RFK Jr. want their agenda through, they'll stack the committees with people, not just in this area, in many areas. But in science in particular, if you deny the science, you do it at your peril, is the view.
Now, there's a huge irony here that if they see China as, you know, the great competitor to be the world's number one superpower. I mean, China is huge in green energy, solar panels in wind. I mean, they generate a huge amount of wind energy themselves, even as they're still probably opening coal fired power stations, but with the view of shutting them down as soon as they can.
That's exactly right. And the Chinese is the good comparison because they're investing massively in research in this area. And then secondly, their exports. But they exported $200 billion worth of renewable equipment like solar panels and so on from China to the rest of the world. Now, the economists would say American companies are suffering because they can't get investment.
You know, they can't get sort of research money, whereas the Chinese can. So again, the Chinese are doing it and the Americans aren't, is the idea. So trust in science is going to be eroded in the general public when they see all of this kind of nonsense going on. That's the more worrying thing for us scientists because mistrust in science is a feature anyway.
And now these people will get it wrong and then science will then begin to lose even more trust in people. Finally, Luke, what are you talking about in your podcast? Yes, this week's podcast is the science of psoriasis, that skin disease. A request has come in. So all about psoriasis and what it is and what the therapies are and so on. So that's the topic.
Luke O'Neill, Professor of Biochemistry at Trinity College in Dublin. Thank you very much for joining us.
The Pat Kenny Show, Saturday and Sunday from 10am on Newstalk. Conversation that counts.
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