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Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them.
Like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
Oh, hi there, listener. Gustavo Sorolla here with the cast of Tales from the Stinky Dragon podcast, and we're about to set the record for the quickest D&D session. Everyone roll initiative.
I got the highest roll with a 19. I move 10 feet toward the listener and say, Hi, I'm Barbara Dunkelman. You should listen to our show, Tales from the Stinky Dragon. It's an immersive D&D actual play show with a fully voiced cast of characters plus sound design. And then I finish my action with a high five. Go ahead and make a dexterity check.
That's an 18. Oh, that's a good high five.
I rolled a 16 on initiative. I walk over to the tavern piano. I play a sixth song and say, hi, I'm John Risinger. Wow, do you hear that?
Tales from the Sneaky Dragon also has its own original score. It's like a movie, but for your ears. All right, yeah, go ahead and roll a performance check. That's a two. Not your best job. Okay, but I promise the show's actual music sounds really good. Okay, me next. I moonwalk up to the listeners. What's up? I'm Blaine Gibson. You should really check out the show.
It's funny, heartwarming, and perfect for everybody. I'm talking D&D veterans, people new to the genre, old people, babies, everybody. And then I do a backflip. All right, roll an athletics check.
That's a nat 20.
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Chapter 2: What are the key themes of parenting from Tolkien's works?
Yeah. It's really good stuff. Tom, feel free to jump in here. You've got something you want to throw in. Yes, you're talking about creation as being something that only the Creator can do. I learned something the other night that I just thought was really, really cool. In chapter 1 of the book of Genesis, the word that's used of God when God creates the world,
That verb, which the root of is bara, B-A-R-A, that word is only used of God. Wow. There are other words for make and things like that, but that word is just like, because I read that and I was like, really? Wow, that is intriguing. And I looked it up and it was like, of course God has his own verbs, right?
Yeah.
Oh, what a way to put it. I love that. It just seems just absolutely cool. And I was able to find the same thing in a couple of different places because it was like, wow, this is true. Yeah. I'd have to verify that. Right. That's how I do that too. That is intriguing. And it certainly fits right in with, with Tolkien's idea that look, what we're doing is an act of sub creation.
It cannot itself be creation. And he even, he even sub creates the same thing, right? He sub creates a universe in which you have a creator who, who is the only one capable of bringing things into existence. The others might be able to sing about them and sing that music and create the vision of it. But the reality of it, that Ea can only be done through Iluvatar.
And then you have Aule, like Sean said, making in sort of this, not mockery, but the way a kid would do what his dad does. Kind of coming back to that first question, right? We want our kids to like what we like. Well, that's kind of natural. And that's what Tolkien's talking about with sub-creation. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I love that. Thank you, Tom. Yeah, that's really some cool insight.
All right. I know I went out of order, but Sean, how do we want to talk about fantasy briefly?
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Chapter 3: How do Tolkien's letters influence modern parenting?
While we were talking about subcreation, I pulled up my copy of On Fairy Stories because I did want to make sure to go back to Tolkien's words a little bit on this. Now, on the surface, fantasy can just be a word for the type of stories that all of us like to read, right? And I say that as, you know, we are fans of books like Lord of the Rings. We are fans of fantasy books.
And so on the surface, it is that. And I think in some ways, the way Tolkien uses the word fantasy and on fairy stories, I think in some ways it is a synonym of fairy story or fairy tale. But I think there is a specific nuance in the word fantasy and it's, there's a clue to it when Tolkien says in On Fairy Stories, he says, fantasy is the making or glimpsing of other worlds.
And I want to focus on, I know we were just now talking about making, I want to focus on glimpsing. Because if you look at the etymology of the word fantasy, Fantasy, and I'm stealing my own thunder here because I want to write a Substack post about this someday. Maybe by the time this is out, it'll already exist. Maybe so. I don't know. No guarantees.
But the word fantasy actually comes from an ancient Greek verb, phaino, phainane, which means to show or to make seen, to make visible. And that's why I think that idea of glimpsing other worlds, fantasy is the glimpsing of other worlds. Fantasy is the showing of other worlds. It's the making visible of other worlds.
And I think that's really key because for Tolkien, these other worlds do exist at some level of the imagination. And when we engage in fantasy, when we read fantasy or when we write fantasy, we are opening a window to these other worlds and we're seeing these other worlds. Um, that's the way I interpret that.
And so there's why that's important is because there's, there's truth there just because these, these other worlds, and I'm going to, I'm going to get into secondary world here a little bit, but just because these other worlds don't exist in the same way that our primary worlds exist, doesn't mean that there's no truth there.
Again, the bit from mythopoeia, you know, he responded to CS Lewis, you know, lies breathe through silver was CS Lewis's claim of myth. No, there is truth to these other worlds. And fantasy is a way of showing them, of finding these other worlds. That is fascinating. I didn't know that route. And of course, you would. I'm not surprised.
I think just to follow up on that, for me, fantasy is often more easily defined by what it's not. And Tolkien does a really good job in On Fairy Stories of describing all the things that we might think that are fantasy, but aren't. And he talks through all the different sort of genres of literature that you might think are sort of fantasy adjacent, but they're not.
So that's a really good place to start, too, if you're trying to figure out, okay, well, I get this nice definition of what it is, but does that fit this or does that fit this? And he really does a good job there. I think the problem with the definition of fantasy that Tolkien sets forth is that
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Chapter 4: What lessons can we learn from Tolkien's characters about facing adversity?
You kind of asked, how are they different? Let's talk about the nuances. I want to actually, now that we've defined all of these words, I want to connect them. I want to draw... Philologically? No, no, that would take too long. Okay. No, I want to do the meme where I'm Charlie Day and I've got all these things on the bulletin board behind me connected with the red yarn.
And I'm going to connect all these things.
All right.
So, fairy... is, I think, somebody correct me if you think I'm wrong, fairy is the source of all of these good things. Fairy is the place where all these things come from. Fantasy is... the window that we open to let these things into our world. Fantasy is the way that we make these things. It's the way to relate fairy to us.
Yeah, it's the way to, I mean, I really do think of it as opening a window to it. Subcreation is the act by which the writer opens that window, creates that fantasy, lets that fairy in. And the secondary world is maybe the vision that they write down. that the reader then enters into to glimpse that fairy.
And then the results of that, the effects of that on the reader are recovery, escape, and consolation. I agree. Absolutely well put. Maybe the secondary world, I would add just that the secondary world is how we experience fairy through fantasy. as written by the sub-creative act of the author, because we can't experience it as a primary world, right?
We can't physically go in a ferry and experience these things ourselves. So the author, through an act of sub-creation, writes a fantasy
which brings the world of Faerie to us that we experience as a secondary world, the better that author is at the sub-creative act, the more internally consistent that world is, and therefore the more we can stay embedded in it, and therefore effectively experience recovery, escape, and consolation. Oh, man. That was good. What a great question to make. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
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Chapter 5: What insights are shared about Sam's character development?
Thank you for allowing us to dive deep, deep into the crevices. Dig into some deep, deep cuts on that one. That's a lot of fun. Seriously. I love that. All right. Well, who do we have up next, Sean? Next up, Alan, is going to be Tom. Tom, welcome back. Welcome back, Tom. Thank you. Great to be here. So I've got a little one and I got a big one. Which one do you want? Your call, sir.
Yeah, your choice. I'll do the little one. The first thing we learn about Sam, the very first thing we learn about him is that he loves stories.
Mm-hmm.
And we learned that from the gaffer. Yeah. And then Bilbo taught him his letters, not meaning any harm. Of course. And then, of course, you get the point where they're on their way to Rivendell and Sam sings the troll song.
And Frodo says, wow, I'm learning a lot about Sam here on this journey. He's going to end up being a wizard or a warrior. And Sam's like, no, no, no, no, no. And one of the things that's really interesting about that is when Sam is having his temptation with the ring.
That's exactly what he imagines. He's Samwise the Strong, striding across the land with a flaming sword, and with the wave of his hand, he makes the veil of Gorgoroth blossom. I just noticed a really interesting thing about that yesterday, or the other day. Is this where he turns the orcs into groundhogs, according to the Bakshi adaptation?
Yes, exactly.
Or is that where he could have asked one?
Exactly.
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Chapter 6: How does the discussion address the consequences of bad parenting in Arda?
And he turns Gollum into Bill Murray.
Oh, man.
And they just keep going, doing it over and over again. So, okay, the first sentence there, which I alluded to, right? Wild fantasies arose in his mind, and he saw Samwise the Strong, hero of the age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dûr. Now, there's...
In each part of this sentence, in the Samwise the Strong, striding with a flaming sword, an army's flocking to his call. In those two different parts, it's like he's thinking of two different people. And who are the people? Who are the people that he's imagining himself as? First is the individual striding with a flaming sword, and then second is the general with the armies flocking to his call.
Yeah, one's the lone hero, and one is the leader. Yeah. Specific people. Champion and general.
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Chapter 7: What role does Glorfindel play in the context of Middle-earth's history?
So Tom is asking us, he knows who these are. He's asking this question because he knows the answer, as any good Vorlon would. So we have to figure this out. Who is he thinking of when he thinks about the flaming sword? Now, the flamifer of Western S comes to mind. True, but that's not a flaming sword. It's not a flaming sword, right.
The only flaming sword he's seen would have been the flippin' Balrogs. That's literally a flaming sword, but I don't think he's picturing himself as a Balrog. If he does, Sam, please don't picture yourself with wings. I mean, the number one lone hero of the First Age who has a special sword, not a flaming sword. No, no, but a special one.
But, you know, Turin, obviously, he is the great... He's the number one lone hero of the First Age, right? In fairness, he also had armies flocking to his call, though, too, right? I mean, he led the army of Nargothron out, much to their dismay. Well, that's true. Part of us, we're reading Sam here, but we're also reading Sam through Tom's eyes, Sean. That's the challenge. Yeah, I know.
I just, I can't, who's got the flaming sword? I don't know. I don't know. I mean... Don't be so literal with that. Okay, that's what I thought. All right.
Chapter 8: What conclusions are drawn about the Druidine and their fate?
You know, what is... the name of Aragorn's sword. And what was it before, right? Narsil. Shards of Narsil. The sun and the moon. The flame, right? So maybe he's seeing himself as the leader that he... has most recently seen fighting, right? He would have seen Aragorn. Maybe he's thinking of himself in that way. Well, and also the reforged version of that sword is Flame of the West.
The Flame of the West. That's where I was trying to get at. And, of course, Tom has just given us the clue, the reforged name. So I think he sees himself as Aragorn. There's another clue that it's Aragorn. Hmm. Hero of the age. Striding. Ha, ha, ha. Ah, oh my gosh. Right there.
It's the striding crew.
Wow, it's right there, isn't it?
Striding with a flaming sword.
I mean, that's not a clue. That's something answers smacking me in the forehead. That's when the subtext has become text. Yeah. So he's picturing himself first as Aragorn. But of course, in Aragorn's mind, he knows that his role is to be that leader, not just the hero striding across the land, but the guy who's going to become the king and armies will be flocking to his call. Yeah.
So is he picturing himself as sort of like the two roles of Strider, as Strider and as King Alessar? Or is he picturing himself as Strider and a second individual? Maybe, maybe Elendil or Isildur. I think that the second individual, it's a warning. The second individual is trouble. The warning. Okay. So he wouldn't be picturing Denethor or anything because there's no Denethor.
Who else has imagined armies flocking to his call? Well, Saruman has certainly imagined that. But would Sam have any – Sam doesn't have the experience of Saruman like Merry and Pippin have. He doesn't have any experience of Denethor either. So it's going to be – I mean, is it – Is it Isildur? I mean, he didn't have armies flocking to his call.
But it would be no surprise if armies flocked to Isildur's call. Hold on. Right. Hold on. Go back to Boromir trying to take the ring from Frodo. He's immediately thinking of how he can use this ring to pull together the armies. Right? That's literally one of the reasons he gives to Frodo why he should take it. Yeah, that's true.
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