As read by George Hahn. https://www.profgalloway.com/brain-drain/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the focus of this 'No Mercy / No Malice' episode?
I'm Scott Galloway, and this is No Mercy, No Malice. America is home to the best and brightest. America is now telling them to leave. Brain Drain, as read by George Hahn.
Chapter 2: How did the Manhattan Project showcase the importance of immigrant scientists?
The Manhattan Project, the top secret U.S. government initiative to build an atomic bomb before Nazi Germany did, relied on hundreds of brilliant scientists from leading universities. Many of them had fled fascist regimes in Europe and found refuge on American campuses, including Berkeley, Columbia, MIT, Princeton, Purdue, and the University of Minnesota.
In the end, Adolf Hitler didn't come close to developing a bomb. But if the rivers of talent had flowed in the opposite direction, the world would look dramatically different today. In the eight decades since World War II, collaboration among the federal government, academia, and industry has unleashed unprecedented prosperity and economic growth for America.
Chapter 3: Why is America's scientific leadership at risk today?
No other country has been as successful. Consider the list of the 10 most valuable companies in the world. Eight are based in the U.S. Research funded by the federal government has paved the way for a long list of breakthroughs, from the Internet to GPS to mRNA vaccines to Apple's Siri. Yet rather than building on this foundation, the White House is determined to destroy it.
The administration is attacking science and slashing research funding at universities under the false flag of fighting anti-Semitism. The demands are more thought control than civil rights. An assault on progressive ideology versus bigotry. The results could be devastating. The river of knowledge may flow in reverse.
Chapter 4: What are the consequences of U.S. research funding cuts and policy changes?
Loathe to get in the way of an adversary making a mistake, global competitors are eagerly shopping at the greatest yard sale of human capital since German scientists bolted for America in World War II. Soon, China won't need to engage in theft of U.S. intellectual property. It will become the primary source.
After the White House in March moved forward with plans to lay off thousands of researchers from leading U.S. facilities, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the National Institutes of Health, and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Chinese recruiters jumped on social media to tout career opportunities in Shenzhen.
Chapter 5: How is China benefiting from the U.S. brain drain?
The Boston area is home to Kendall Square, which may be the most innovative square mile on the planet, and boasts universities including Harvard, MIT, and Tufts. In March, a Turkish doctoral student was arrested by masked federal agents, a year after she co-wrote an op-ed criticizing the school's response to Israel's war in Gaza.
The governor of Massachusetts, Maura Healey, said, China is on our campuses right now, recruiting scientists and faculty members. Quote, that makes America less safe, less competitive, and has tremendous ripple effects for our economy. Unquote. By many measures, China is already a scientific superpower. In other areas, it's gaining ground quickly.
Chapter 6: What impact do recent events on U.S. university campuses have on scientific talent?
The number of universities in China and Hong Kong ranked in the top 100 doubled to 12 over the past five years, while the number of American universities slipped to 38 from 40, according to the Annual Times Higher Education List of more than 2,000 institutions. A different ranking of the top 500 showed that the number of Chinese universities tripled between 2010 and 2020 amid a slump for U.S.
institutions. Departures of Chinese scientists from the U.S. have also been accelerating, fueled by a 2018 program that sought to curb Chinese espionage. Although the Trump-era China Initiative was shut down four years later, Reports of high-profile scientists of Chinese origin returning to China in recent months have raised concern.
Chapter 7: How are rankings of U.S. and Chinese universities changing?
I believe there are likely numerous Chinese nationals who are spies, and it's worth it. Imagine a football team that receives not one but 31 of the 32 first-round draft picks every year. Now imagine the owner harasses the rookie quarterback, cleans out his locker, and threatens to have him and his family arrested and deported, sending a chill through the ranks of promising college players.
That would be not smart. This is what the White House is doing. When you hear the term brain drain, you think of America as the primary beneficiary. The country has long been the envy of the world when it comes to attracting talent. But we can no longer take this status for granted. Last week, we wrote about the rivers of financial capital reversing and flowing away from the U.S.
But the change in direction of human capital may be even more important. In a March poll by the journal Nature, more than 1,200 American scientists—three-quarters of the respondents— said they were considering leaving America. The journal's job search platform saw 32% more applications for positions overseas from January through March 2025 versus a year prior.
European leaders aren't wasting any time in exploiting America's dramatic research cuts, restrictions on academic freedom, and funding freezes. The European Commission's president, Ursula von der Leyen, earlier this week announced an investment of 500 million euros to woo international researchers, highlighting the EU's values of freedom, openness, collaboration, and diversity.
Chapter 8: What do recent polls reveal about American scientists considering leaving the U.S.?
Without directly mentioning Trump, she said that undermining science and research is a, quote, gigantic miscalculation, unquote. French President Emmanuel Macron, who joined von der Leyen at Sorbonne University in Paris, said his country would commit another 100 million euros to attract scholars and make Europe a safe haven for science. Macron said, quote,
No one could have thought that one of the largest democracies in the world would erase, with a stroke of the pen, the ability to grant visas to certain researchers. No one could have thought that this great democracy, whose economic model relies so heavily on free science, on innovation, and on its ability to innovate more than Europeans, would make such a mistake."
Many other countries see an opening, too. In the UK, the Financial Times reported that the government is considering a £50 million program to court researchers, while Australia, Canada, the Netherlands and Norway are progressing with their own plans. Regions within nations are jumping in as well.
Catalan President Salvador Illa unveiled a 30 million euro effort, the Catalonia Talent Bridge, to finance posts for more than 70 American researchers facing restrictions to their academic freedom. At my own institution, NYU Stern School of Business, I've seen firsthand the talent the rest of the world is racing to attract.
The brightest scholars from the Indian Institutes of Science and other universities pace the halls of Stern. In some, they dominate. Exceptional scholars, teachers, and American patriots. To think that the U.S. is shutting off the tap, it isn't just depressing. It's fucking stupid.
Even if the White House is sparing artificial intelligence and quantum research from its slash-and-burn strategy, it has requested cutting the $9 billion budget of the National Science Foundation by more than half.
The government agency, a major funder of basic science, math, and engineering, especially at universities across the country, terminated more than 1,000 active grants over a two-week period. Waging war on universities and reducing federal funding for scientific research will weaken America's economic competitiveness.
Economists at American University found that a 25% cut to public R&D spending would cut gross domestic product by 3.8%. That's comparable to the decline seen during the Great Recession, which ended in 2009. a 50% reduction in funding would lower GDP by almost 7.6%, making Americans much poorer. The U.S. can't rely on the private sector to replace the government in funding science.
No corporation can match the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, which has played a critical role as an engine of American innovation. Early-stage research is risky and requires massive capital and patience. Investments companies focused on quarterly earnings can't justify. Prosperous nations play the long game. The world's most valuable firms have one thing in common.
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