The Remarkable SaaS Podcast
Episodes
#398 – How Scott Reynolds bet on depth over breadth and built a position that sticks
25 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing the hard problem—and winning because of it. This episode is for sales-led SaaS founders who feel their product lead shrinking...
#397 – How Dean Mathews rejected conventional growth and built a company 170,000 people rely on every month
18 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about measuring success differently—and what that single decision buildsThis episode is for SaaS founders who sense their growth metrics are...
#396 – Why Hewitt Tomlin reversed course at $10M
11 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about admitting your own strategy pulled you away from what mattersThis episode is for sales-led SaaS founders wondering whether their expansi...
#395 – How Bassem Hamdy created something no competitor can touch
04 Mar 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about destroying your own work—and creating what lastsThis episode is for sales-led SaaS founders who suspect their product is slowly becomi...
#394 – Jon Jorgensen on how Access Group went from £50M to £9.2B valuation
25 Feb 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about what happens when you build a Forever Business—instead of chasing the next exitThis episode is for sales-led SaaS founders who feel th...
#393 – How Andrei Pitis killed a working product and grew 10x in months
18 Feb 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about betting on what's coming—not what's workingThis episode is for SaaS founders questioning whether their current traction is real moment...
#392 – How Georgi Petrov built four companies on profit, not fundraising
11 Feb 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing margins over momentum—and letting investors call you wrongThis episode is for SaaS CEOs stuck around 20% EBITDA and wondering...
#391 – How Pete Hunt turned a tool into a tribe
28 Jan 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about users competitors can't stealThis episode is for SaaS founders wondering why their users like the product but don't love it.Second mover...
#390 – How Jim Whatmore chose patience over speed to dominate UK field service
21 Jan 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about building market leadership by saying no to obvious growth—on purpose.This episode is for SaaS founders chasing international expansion...
#389 – How Tal Peretz questioned the AI playbook and created results competitors can't match
14 Jan 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing what others avoid—and creating competitive advantage no one can copy.This episode is for sales-led SaaS founders wondering wh...
#388 – How Panos Siozos reached 12.5K customers across 150 countries
07 Jan 2026
Contributed by Lukas
A story about solving two problems everyone else picks between.This episode is for SaaS founders with deep domain expertise—and wondering why the ma...
#387 – How Mariano Garcia-Valiño proved he could save lives—but couldn't find anyone willing to pay
19 Nov 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about how "everyone agrees" is the most dangerous lie in SaaS.This episode is for SaaS founders frustrated watching their solution solve real ...
#386 – How Rex Kurzius built a business that funds itself
12 Nov 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing autonomy over speed—and building something that lasts.This episode is for SaaS founders tired of chasing growth rounds—and ...
#385 – Speed is the strategy: Redefining Enterprise software for a changing world
05 Nov 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about speed as strategy—and why saying no to billion-dollar deals built a stronger company.This episode is for SaaS founders who feel stuck ...
#384 – How Wokelo built trust (and premium prices) by choosing depth over speed
29 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
When everyone else optimized for instant answers, Sid Masson built for depth and accuracy—and enterprise customers paid more for the difference.This...
#383 - How Joshua Summers turned a banking crisis into an AI workforce for credit
22 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This episode is for founders stuck building features nobody asked for—who want to discover what customers actually need.Joshua Summers, CEO of EnFi,...
#382 - How Martin Balaam chose depth over scale and built to $7M ARR
15 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This episode is for SaaS founders tired of the "grow at all costs" playbook—who suspect there's power in saying no to the wrong customers.Most SaaS ...
#381 - How David Villalon built AI workers that enterprises actually trust
08 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about winning by not competing—and why saying no creates speedThis episode is for SaaS founders who feel the weight of building something th...
#380 – How Ken Rapp built a category by solving the problem he lived with
01 Oct 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about finding opportunity in the moments everyone else ignores.This episode is for founders questioning whether their personal frustration is ...
#379 – How Zohar Bronfman built AI that actually delivers ROI
24 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about rejecting the magic wand approach to AI—and building something businesses can actually use.This episode is for Mid-market SaaS founder...
#378 - How Ray Meiring built fanatical customers by choosing exactly who to ignore
17 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about passing lucrative deals to competitors—and building something users refuse to give upThis episode is for SaaS founders exhausted from ...
#377 – How Joao Marques became Portugal's home services market leader in 2 years
10 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about turning impatience into competitive advantage.This episode is for SaaS founders tired of building "professional" products nobody remembe...
#376 – How Dinakara Nagalla turned aircraft mechanics into his biggest fans and built a successful exit
03 Sep 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about building a cult following in the unglamorous world of aviation maintenanceThis episode is for SaaS founders exhausted from building "nic...
#375 - How Samy Dindane achieved total business freedom by choosing who NOT to serve
27 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about finding freedom by solving problems others ignored—on purpose.For SaaS founders tired of feature bloat—and wondering if serving fewe...
#374 - How Chad Rubin helps Amazon brands escape the pricing race to the bottom
20 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
#374 - How Chad Rubin helps Amazon brands escape the pricing race to the bottomA story about moving from being a cost center to becoming the profit en...
#373 – How Davit Baghdasaryan built the world's best voice AI by solving problems others ignored
13 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about turning personal frustration into breakthrough technology—and why great products come from pain you actually feel.This Episode is for ...
#372 – How Hikari Senju built a hockey stick by preparing for the moment others missed
06 Aug 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about preparation beating speed—when you know what's coming.For SaaS founders tired of rushing features to market—and wondering if there's...
#371 – How Eli Portnoy turned a frustrating pattern into his biggest opportunity
23 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about staying connected to customers while everyone else scales away from them.For SaaS founders who feel increasingly disconnected from their...
#370 – How Richard White built infrastructure to bully competitors out of business
16 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing technical battles that create unbeatable unit economics—while competitors bleed money.This episode is for SaaS founders tired...
#369 – How Marne Martin turns "boring" expense software into competitive gold
09 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing overlooked markets—and winning by design.For SaaS founders who feel stuck chasing trendy markets—and anyone wondering if th...
#368 – How Alexander Sommer kept what others call economically unviable
02 Jul 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about choosing the harder path—and why contrarian infrastructure decisions create unshakeable customer loyalty.This episode is for SaaS foun...
#367 – How Chris Brisson killed his first company to build a messaging platform that scales
25 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about creating something remarkable by choosing to start over - on purpose.This podcast is for SaaS founders who feel stuck chasing feature pa...
#366 – How Quentin de Quelen built MeiliSearch by choosing what others avoid
18 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about building an open-source search engine that developers actually want to use.This episode is for SaaS founders chasing feature parity with...
#365 – How Dimitri Masin hit $1M ARR in 5 months by refusing to launch early
11 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about creating trust in a skeptical market by choosing quality over speed - on purpose.This episode is for SaaS founders building in regulated...
#364 – How 46 Labs scaled to $80M by solving the problems others ignored
04 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about creating something desirable by choosing to be different—on purpose.Most SaaS companies don’t fail because of bad tech.They fail bec...
#364 – How 46 Labs scaled to $80M by solving the problems others ignored
04 Jun 2025
Contributed by Lukas
Most SaaS companies don’t fail because of bad tech.They fail because they try to win by copying playbooks that were never made for them. Trevor Fra...
#363 - Sunil Patel, CEO of Tekmetric on ignoring customer wishlists to kill industry dinosaurs
28 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about turning repair shop headaches into gold by solving real problems, not copying competitorsThis podcast interview reveals why the best sof...
#362 – How Sharat Potharaju built a 50,000-customer business by saying "no" to endless opportunities
21 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about finding entrepreneurial wisdom through a decade of patient persistenceThis podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to d...
#361 - Imran Syed, CEO of Hatchproof on building companies through deep problem understanding, not solutions
14 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey of finding purpose and transformation through failure. My guest is Imran Syed, CEO of Ha...
#360 - Zach Wasserman, Co-founder of Fleet on community-driven business growth
07 May 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey of turning transparency into business advantage. My guest is Zach Wasserman, Cofounder a...
#359 - Jan Bruce, CEO of meQuilibrium, on when to ignore the capital temptation
30 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on what it takes to build a successful software company by following your convictions even when easier paths tempt you....
#358 - Samuel Logan, CEO of Evidencity, on when slowing down accelerates growth
23 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial wisdom gained through building a data-driven business from scratch. My guest is Samuel Logan, Fo...
#357 - Rich Kahn, Founder and CEO of Anura, on transforming a reluctant side project into a viable business
16 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on Rich Kahn's journey from side project to successful business, sharing key entrepreneurial insights. My guest is Rich...
#356 - Geordy Murphy, Fobesoft on building resilience through market downturns
02 Apr 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on building remarkable software that creates sustainable competitive advantage. My guest is Geordy Murphy, CEO of Fobes...
#355 - Maximus Greenwald, Warmly on Mastering the Pivot Journey
26 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey of persistence and adaptation. My guest is Maximus Greenwald, CEO of Warmly. After work...
#354 - Ash Didwania, Workzone on Achieving Growth Without Sacrificing Profitability
19 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial challenge of revitalizing a 20-year-old SaaS business in a market with hundreds of competitors. ...
#353 - Krishna Raj Raja, CEO SupportLogic - Why investor skepticism can signal your biggest opportunity
12 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on transforming how B2B companies leverage customer interactions for growth. My guest is Krishna Raj Raja, CEO of Suppo...
#352 - David DeWolf, CEO of Knownwell on when NOT to scale
05 Mar 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the critical decisions that define successful scaling. My guest is David DeWolf, CEO of Knownwell. After growing Th...
#351 - Nick Wassenberg, Cludo on customer-driven growth strategy
26 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
A story about transforming a horizontal solution into targeted value propositions This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to bu...
#350 - Smadar Tadmor, Claro Mentor on Starting from Zero at the Top
19 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to make effective leadership development available for everyone. My guest is Smadar Tadm...
#349 - Robbert Lodewijks on turning validation into velocity
12 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to transform thoughtful validation of the problem into confident scaling of his SaaS bus...
#348 - Marco Benitez, CEO of Rook - on transforming health data into enterprise value.
05 Feb 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to transform messy wearable data into standardized enterprise gold. My guest is Marco Be...
#347 - Mark Fershteyn, CEO, Recapped - on transforming complex B2B sales
29 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to make buying and selling in B2B remarkably easier. My guest is Mark Fershteyn, Found...
#346 - Randy Wootton, CEO of Maxio - on strategic growth through integration
22 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to successfully merge and integrate two distinct SaaS companies while balancing stakehol...
#345 - Evan Huck, CEO of UserEvidence - on customer evidence democratization.
15 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to democratize customer evidence and change the way B2B software buying decisions are ma...
#344 - Wes Bush, Founder of Productled.com - on product-led business transformation
08 Jan 2025
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the challenges and strategies of implementing product-led growth (PLG) effectively (and when to stay out of PLG). My...
#343 - Aytekin Tank, CEO Jotform - on continuous innovation and momentum
18 Dec 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build a global SaaS company with 25 million users without venture funding. My guest i...
#342 - Ozan Unlu, CEO of Edge Delta - on solving critical business problems.
11 Dec 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to eliminate the risk that cost businesses thousands of $ per second of downtime. My gue...
#341 - Daniel Saks, CEO of Landbase - on reclaiming your day with AI
06 Dec 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to redefine software's role from engagement-driven to impact-driven solutions. My guest ...
#340 - Mark Kosoglow, CEO of Operator - on critical thinking in sales
27 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to transform toxic sales automation. My guest is Mark Kosoglow, CEO of Operator. Mark is...
#339 - Griffin Parry, CEO of m3ter - on taking the pain out of billing operations.
20 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build mission-critical billing infrastructure for complex B2B SaaS pricing models. My...
#338 - Hadassah Backman, CEO of Guardoc Health - solving critical industry problems
13 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to change the way healthcare nurses can work to improve patient safety. My guest is Hada...
#337 - Dan Uyemura, CEO of Pushpress - on Vertical SaaS differentiation
06 Nov 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build deep vertical business solutions that deliver 10x value for every 1x in price c...
#336 - Victor Kristof, CEO of DemoSquare - on resilient customer-driven innovation.
30 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to democratize political data and anticipate regulatory changes. My guest is Victor Kris...
#335 - Joaquim Lecha, CEO of Typeform - on creating SaaS products customers love.
23 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to help all of us to have conversations that drive action and meaningful connections. M...
#334 - Bridget Harris, CEO of You Can Book Me - on the art of Bootstrapping.
16 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build a successful bootstrapped SaaS company in the highly competitive scheduling sof...
#333 - Caitlin MacGregor, CEO of Plum- on successfully navigating market change
09 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey from the last 5 years to turn Plum into the best Talent Intelligence solution on the mar...
#332 - Matt Van Itallie, CEO of Sema - on executive Insight into code quality.
02 Oct 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to make complex code understandable for business leaders. My guest is Matt Van Itallie, ...
#331 - Christian Klepp, host of the “B2B Marketers on a Mission” Podcast - on how curiosity drives B2B marketing.
25 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to drive change and adapt as a B2B marketer in an evolving business landscape. My guest ...
#330 - Thomas Wulff Wilhelmsen, CEO of Less - on creating a customer-funded business.
18 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to empower business users, especially in SMEs, to easily find insights in their data wit...
#329 - Angelo Coletta, CEO of Zakeke - on becoming a global leader in visual commerce.
11 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey in identifying an emerging opportunity and building an innovative, fast-growing company ...
#328 - Matthew McGrory, CEO at Arwen AI, on solving a problem of global scale.
04 Sep 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to make social a positive place again - for everyone. My guest is Matthew McGrory, CEO o...
#327 - Josh Ellars, CEO of OpenGTM - on Differentiation and growing efficiently.
28 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to take GTM efficiency to the next level for enterprise SaaS companies. My guest is Josh...
#326 - Niklas Hanitsch, CEO of SECJUR - on balancing culture and growth challenges
21 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
#326 - Niklas Hanitsch, CEO of SECJUR - on balancing culture and growth challenges A story about maintaining a blue ocean market in the rapidly evolvi...
#325 - Matt Achariam, Co-CEO Clay - on fueling organic growth through Remarkability.
14 Aug 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to finally solve the problem of managing all your personal and professional relationship...
#324 - Lee Rubin, Founder and CEO of Confetti - on designing for business resilience.
31 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build a business that can survive crises and emerge stronger every time. My guest is ...
#323 - Emeric Ernoult, CEO Agorapulse, Company - on avoiding Million $ mistakes.
24 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to create a sticky and healthy B2B SaaS business. My guest is Emeric Ernoult, Founder an...
#322 - Jim Yu, Founder BrightEdge - on his system to grow from $0 to $100M ARR
17 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to turn a startup into a +$100M ARR growth business. My guest is Jim Yu, Founder & Exec ...
#321 - Max Fischer, CEO of Deltia - on building for business scale.
10 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to solve the most challenging productivity challenge in Manufacturing: human action. My ...
#320 - Ruban Phukan, CEO Goodgist - on creating business resilience
03 Jul 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to redefine the way we learn and solve the growing skills gap. My guest is Ruban Phukan,...
#319 - Ryan Letzeiser, CEO of Obie Insurance - on the courage to pivot.
26 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey that required a 180-degree pivot to find strong product market fit. My guest is Ryan Lei...
#318 - Ed Bradley, CEO Virtualstock - on transforming retail.
19 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build a lean organization that has the power to win the biggest brands in the retail ...
#317 - Ryan Janssen, CEO of Zenlytic- on successfully pioneering Generative AI.
12 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to change the way we think and use about Business Intelligence. My guest is Ryan Janssen...
#316 - Zach Barney, CEO Mobly - on taking on a forgotten market in sales automation.
05 Jun 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to solve a global challenge: helping field sales sell more and faster. My guest is Zach ...
#315 - JJ (Projjal) Ghatak, CEO of OnLoop - on challenging the status quo.
29 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to outcompete everyone in the category. My guest is JJ (Projjal) Ghatak, Co-founder & CE...
#314 - Jon Gillham, CEO, Originality AI - on solving a global trust problem
22 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to win the global content plagiarism battle. My guest is Jon Gillham, CEO of Originality...
#313 - Theo Saville, CEO CloudNC - on creating leverage in SaaS Sales & Marketing
15 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to tackle a very challenging industry problem and scale impact. My guest is Theo Saville...
#312 - Harpreet Singh, Co-CEO Launchable - on avoiding Red-Ocean markets
08 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to solve the non-trivial testing problems of some companies that we all blindly rely on ...
#311 - Oscar Rundqvist, CEO of eComID - on cross-industry collaboration.
01 May 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to create meaningful global change by making problem creators responsible for solving it...
#310 - JB Daguené, CEO Evergrowth - on the future of account-based sales
24 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to use AI in a way that makes salespeople more human again. My guest is JB Daguené, Fou...
#309 - Masha Petrova Ph.D., CEO Nullspace - on go-to-market execution for highly technical products.
17 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to turn a Defense Contractor product spin-off into a scalable SaaS business. My guest is...
#308 - Slava Libman, CEO FTD Solutions - on selling value
10 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on do's & don'ts that matter if you want your Service business to become successful in SaaS. My guest is Slava Libman, ...
#307 - Pete Christothoulou, CEO of Xembly - on choosing AutoPilots over Co-Pilots
03 Apr 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to solve the growing issue of knowledge worker unproductivity. My guest is Pete Christot...
#306 - Vinnie Mirchandani, CEO Deal Architect - on seizing emerging opportunities.
27 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast outlines key strategies for SaaS CEOs to explore in 2024 to optimally prepare for 2025. My guest is Vinnie Mirchandani, Founder of Deal A...
#305 - Dean Guida, CEO Infragistics - on business resilience
20 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the resilience lessons learned from running a successful business software company for +34 years. My guest is Dean G...
#304 - Justin Chen, CEO PickFu - on turning nice-to-have into critical-to-have.
12 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the journey to take a SaaS business to $1M+ . My guest is Justin Chen, Co-founder and CEO of PickFu. When Justin and...
#303 - Rory Codrington, CEO of Trust Keith - on building an exceptional SaaS business.
06 Mar 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to become a trusted brand in a heavily competitive and unsexy market. My guest is Rory C...
#302 - Ron Gidron, CEO of Xtype on creating ecosystem success.
28 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to create a serious business by daring to focus on some fundamental flaws of one enterpr...
#301 - Jason Cohen, Founder WPEngine - on building profitable businesses.
21 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
This podcast interview focuses on the entrepreneurial journey to build a business that lasts and creates funding freedom. My guest is Jason Cohen, Fou...
#300 - The most valuable advice from 23 B2B SaaS CEOs
14 Feb 2024
Contributed by Lukas
Welcome to episode 300 of the Tech-entrepreneur on a mission podcast. Because this is a big milestone on the journey I didn’t want to devote this ...