The Trail Dames Podcast

Episode #153 - Courtney Miller (Unfiltered)

26 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Courtney has had an on-again/off-again relationship with mountains, hiking and primitive camping, starting in Alaska in her very early life. She also ...

Episode #152 - LiteShoe's Tales of the AT #3 (Pre-Hike)

19 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Jan Leitschuh was bitten by the AT bug in 2002. With no real backpacking experience, she threw herself into learning, training and stomping down fears...

Episode #151 Lagniappe - Chelsea McCurdy

12 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Chelsea McCurdy is a queer plus-sized hiker who advocates for body positivity, health at every size, and joyful movement. She believes that nature is ...

Episode #150 - LiteShoe's Tales of the AT #2 (Pre-Hike)

05 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Jan Leitschuh was bitten by the AT bug in 2002. With no real backpacking experience, she threw herself into learning, training and stomping down fears...

Episode #149 - Nancy East (5th Tuesday)

29 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

I am a mom to three amazing kids, a wife to the love of my life, a retired veterinarian, a team member of our local search and rescue squad, a certifi...

Episode #148 - Natalie Bonthius

22 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Natalie Bonthius is the founder of Survival Med. She earned her Doctorate of Medicine from the University of Central Florida, and is combining a caree...

Episode #147 - LiteShoe's Tales of the AT #1 (Pre-Hike)

15 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Jan Leitschuh was bitten by the AT bug in 2002. With no real backpacking experience, she threw herself into learning, training, and stomping down fear...

Episode #146 Lagniappe - Elevated Oats

08 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Megan Militello | Founder + CEO at Elevated Oats | Army Staff Sergeant | MS, Embry-Riddle | Mountaineer As an Army air traffic controller, Megan held ...

Episode #145 - Nancy East (a Trail Dames Story)

01 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Nancy is a mom to three amazing kids, a wife to the love of her life, a retired veterinarian, a team member of her local search and rescue squad, a ce...

Episode #144 - Kelly Howard

22 Feb 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Kelly Howard is the Fitness Consistency Coach with a touch of adventure! She helps busy women prioritize their fitness so they can feel great and have...

Episode #143 - Natalie Bonthius (a Trail Dames story)

15 Feb 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Natalie Bonthius is the founder of Survival Med. She earned her Doctorate of Medicine from the University of Central Florida, and is combining a caree...

Episode #142 Lagniappe - Hiking the AT with my Favorite Brother

08 Feb 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Charles Huthmaker, CEO and Founder of CJ Crew Co., has been immersed in rowing since 1988 when he was walking across campus and saw the same sign that...

Episode #141- Courtney Miller, aka Unfiltered (a Trail Dames story)

01 Feb 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Courtney has had an on-again/off-again relationship with mountains, hiking, and primitive camping, starting in Alaska in her early life. She also ofte...

Episode # 140 - Julie Wilson-Freeman (Stripper)

25 Jan 2022

Contributed by Lukas

After completing the AT in 2018, Julie Wilson-Freeman, aka Stripper, decided she wasn't quite done.... she shares her stories of the last 150 miles of...

Episode #139 - Julie Wilson aka Stripper (a Trail Dames story)

18 Jan 2022

Contributed by Lukas

I have been married to Jon Freeman for 7 years, but have only been home twice to celebrate our anniversary! Usually I’m out hiking. I am 57 years ol...

Episode #138 Lagniappe - Compression socks, yea or nay??

11 Jan 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hut...

Episode #137 - Mud Butt (a Trail Dames story)

04 Jan 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hut...

Episode #136 - Ada and Melissa (mother and daughter)

28 Dec 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Ada In 2000, I retired from the telephone company in Chicago, Illinois where I worked as a computer programmer and business systems analyst. In the en...

Episode #135 - Jessica Mills aka Dixie (a Trail Dames story)

21 Dec 2021

Contributed by Lukas

My name is Jessica Mills, but in the hiking world, people call me “Dixie.” Although I was born in Florida, I ‘grew up’ in Opelika, AL. I spent...

Episode #134 Lagniappe - K. Jamila Minnifield (Turtle), Wilderness Therapist

14 Dec 2021

Contributed by Lukas

K. Jamila Minnifield, MA, LAPC, NCC, Primary Therapist Jamila earned her undergraduate degree at Georgia Southern University and her master’s degree...

Episode #133 - Ada and Melissa / Mother and Daughter (a Trail Dames story)

07 Dec 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Ada- In 2000, I retired from the telephone company in Chicago, Illinois, where I worked as a computer programmer and business systems analyst. In the ...

Episode #132 - 5th Tuesday Interview with Jessica Mills (Dixie)

30 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Jessica Mills, better known in the hiking world, as “Dixie,” was born in Florida. She ‘grew up’ in Opelika, AL, spending the majority of her s...

Episode #131 - Paula Martin (Wind Eagle)

23 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

As a young kid, Paula Martin enjoyed exploring the outdoors, especially at her grandparents' cabin in the deep woods of Tioga State Forest. Much to he...

Episode #130 - Anna aka Mud Butt (a Trail Dames story)

16 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hut...

Episode #129 Lagniappe - Shannon Fisher

09 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

2021 has been full of adventures for Shannon Fisher! In February, she purchased "Beaulah", a 2006 retired ambulance that she is converting into a camp...

Episode #128 - Mary Emerick (a Trail Dames story)

02 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Mary's story is about a chance bear encounter in the Alaskan wilderness, involving some adrenaline, a barking dog, and a whole lot of appreciation for...

Episode #127 - Mary Emerick (Monkey Bars)

26 Oct 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Mary Emerick is an author and a wilderness planner with the Forest Service, but her real love is long distance hiking. She began her backpacking caree...

Episode #126 - Michelle Pettitt (a Trail Dames story)

19 Oct 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Michelle Pettitt has been a teacher for almost 15 years. For the past 9 years, she has taught at Berkmar High School in Lilburn, Georgia, currently te...

Episode #125 Lagniappe - Crystal Willett

12 Oct 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Crystal Willett is a 55 years old, single mom of 2 wonderful boys (men) 32 and 17 years old. She works in medical records for a mental health facility...

Episode #124 - Kim Weiler aka Tough Cookie (a Trail Dames story)

05 Oct 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Kim Weiler is, in her own words, a 'motor-city, Detroit girl'. She has a wide range of passions from music to travel, but it was a move to Georgia sev...

Episode #123 - Ann Leahy (Turtle Grace)

28 Sep 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Ann Leahy was born and raised in the seacoast area of NH. She spent her childhood summers on Lake Winnipesaukee and learned how to water ski and fish ...

Episode #122 - Paula Martin (a Trail Dames story)

21 Sep 2021

Contributed by Lukas

As a young kid, Paula Martin enjoyed exploring the outdoors, especially at her grandparents' cabin in the deep woods of Tioga State Forest. Much to he...

Episode #121 Lagniappe - Audrey Scanlan

14 Sep 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Audrey Scanlan serves as the Bishop of the Episcopal Church in Central Pennsylvania - an elected position that gives her oversight of 60 churches and ...

Episode #120 - Colleen Drake #2 (a Trail Dames story)

07 Sep 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Growing up in the northwest in a family that camped every summer, Colleen Drake, also known as Teacup, has been hiking since she was old enough to wal...

Episode #119 - 5th Tuesday Interview with Lauralee Bliss (Blissful)

31 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lauralee Bliss–trail name "Blissful"–is a two-time Appalachian Trail long distance hiker, both north and south, including a thru-hike with her tee...

Episode #118 - Ashley Manning (Yardsale)

24 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Ashley Manning, whose trail name is Yardsale, has become a well-known advocate for plus-size adventuring. She has made it to around mile 950 on the Ap...

Episode #117 - Ronelle Baker (a Trail Dames story)

17 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Ronelle lives in Oklahoma and is 59 years old. She retired 2 years ago from a 30-year federal government career working for our service members, veter...

Episode #116 Lagniappe - Amanda Aguillard

10 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Amanda Aguillard was only 16 years old when she realized she wanted to become a CPA, and she’s used that passion ever since to encourage innovation ...

Episode #115 - Anna Huthmaker (a Trail Dames story)

03 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hut...

Episode #114 - Christine Reed

27 Jul 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Christine discovered long-distance backpacking while surfing the internet at work. She decided that day to attempt to thru-hike the Appalachian Trail....

Episode #113 - Lauralee Bliss #3 (a Trail Days story)

20 Jul 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lauralee Bliss, trail name "Blissful," is a two-time Appalachian Trail long-distance hiker north and south including a thru hike with her teen son, an...

Episode #112 Lagniappe - Gear Talk with Tanya Bowers-Dean

13 Jul 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Tanya Bowers-Dean is an enthusiastic if extremely slow hiker and backpacker whose trail name is Caboose. She started hiking and backpacking about 6 ye...

Episode #111 - Colleen Drake #1 (a Trail Dames story)

06 Jul 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Growing up in the northwest in a family that camped every summer, Colleen Drake, also known as Teacup, has been hiking for more than 60 years, since s...

Episode #110 - 5th Tuesday-Ankle Health and Hiking with Lindsay Wenndt of Break Free Fitness

29 Jun 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lindsay Wenndt is a nationally certified health coach and fitness instructor, with specialty certifications in weight management and orthopedic health...

Episode #109 - Collin Chambers

22 Jun 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Collin Chambers is the founder of WildWood Magic and is widely recognized for encouraging people to take walks in nature. After losing 100 pounds by a...

Episode #108 - Shadi Ganjavian Connor #2 (a Trail Dames story)

15 Jun 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Shadi Ganjavian-Connor has an extraordinary talent for inspiring others, fueled quite simply by her sole desire to help the world in any way she can. ...

Episode #107 Lagniappe - Lisa Best (Savor Life)

08 Jun 2021

Contributed by Lukas

We've all had to do it. Our very first time, by ourselves, in the middle of the woods. Lisa Best decided it was time that she got out there and tested...

Episode #106 - Miranda Peterson (a Trail Dames story)

01 Jun 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Miranda was burnt out from a successful yet stressful corporate career, ending a toxic long-term relationship and struggling with an autoimmune diseas...

Episode #105 - Miranda Peterson (Namaste in Nature)

25 May 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Miranda Peterson was burnt out from a successful, yet stressful, corporate career, ending a toxic long-term relationship, and struggling with an autoi...

Episode #104 - Lauralee Bliss #2 (a Trail Dames story)

18 May 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lauralee Bliss, trail name "Blissful," is a two-time Appalachian Trail long-distance hiker north and south including a thru hike with her teen son, an...

Episode #103 Lagniappe - Campground Etiquette

11 May 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Your host, Anna aka Mud Butt, shares some important campground etiquette for the next time you head out to do some camping! Guest Links- Basic Campin...

Episode #102 - Christine Reed (a Trail Dames story)

04 May 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Christine Reed discovered long-distance backpacking while surfing the internet at work. She decided that day to attempt to thru-hike the Appalachian T...

Episode #101 - Shadi Ganjavian Connor

27 Apr 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Shadi Ganjavian-Connor has an extraordinary talent for inspiring others, fueled quite simply by her sole desire to help the world in any way she can. ...

Episode #100 - Shadi Ganjavian Connor (a Trail Dames Story)

20 Apr 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Shadi Ganjavian-Connor has an extraordinary talent for inspiring others, fueled quite simply by her sole desire to help the world in any way she can. ...

Episode #99 Lagniappe - You Tube Channels to Follow!

13 Apr 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Your host, Anna aka Mud Butt, shares some of the best You Tube channels to follow. Guest Links- Jessica “Dixie” Mills Homemade Wanderlust- https:/...

Episode #98 - Lauralee Bliss (Trail Dames story #1)

06 Apr 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lauralee Bliss–trail name "Blissful"–is a two-time Appalachian Trail long-distance hiker, north and south, including a thru hike with her teen son...

Episode #97 - Gear Gab with Judy Gross of Lightheart Gear

30 Mar 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Judy “HeartFire” Gross is the owner of LightHeart Gear. She lives in the Beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of Western North Carolina (a few feet sout...

Episode #96 - Lisa Work and Audrey Scanlan

23 Mar 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Lisa Work: Lisa has been in education for over 30 years serving in private schools and public schools in theroles of teacher, administrator, and consu...

Episode #95 - Anna: A Multitude of Thanks (a Trail Dames story)

16 Mar 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast, and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hu...

Episode #94 Lagniappe - "630 Miles Braver" by Zoe Langley-Wathen

09 Mar 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Zoe describes herself as a mid-life blogger, speaker, and adventure seeker. She set off to walk the UK's longest national trail in 2011–solo–and s...

Episode #93 - Audrey and Lisa (a Trail Dames story)

02 Mar 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Audrey Scanlan: Audrey serves as the Bishop of the Episcopal Church in Central Pennsylvania - an elected position that gives her oversight of 60 churc...

Episode #92 - Jaunting Jan (aka BeeKeeper)

23 Feb 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Jan (aka BeeKeeper aka Jaunting Jan) adopted an unconventional lifestyle when she "retired." She'd rediscovered hiking around age 50, was deep into ba...

Episode #91 - Anna aka Mud Butt (a Trail Dames story)

16 Feb 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Anna is the host of the Trail Dames Podcast and when not interviewing amazing women for the podcast, can be found running her family violins shop, Hut...

Episode #90 Lagniappe - Tales from Nepal

09 Feb 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Patti Shales Lefkos is a Canadian writer and journalist. Her Himalayan adventure travel memoir, Nepal One Day at a Time, celebrates her creative non-f...

Episode #89 - Zoe Langley-Watham (a Trail Dames story)

02 Feb 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Zoe describes herself as a mid-life blogger, speaker, and adventure seeker. She set off to walk the UK's longest national trail in 2011, solo and soon...

Episode #88 - Patti Lefkos (Azurama)

26 Jan 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Patti Shales Lefkos is a Canadian writer and journalist. Her Himalayan adventure travel memoir Nepal One Day at a Time celebrates her creative non-fic...

Episode #87 - Laura Seeger (a Trail Dames story)

19 Jan 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Laura is 57 years old, works in the insurance industry, and is the Head Dame of the Chattanooga Trail Dames chapter. Of self-professed "average build ...

Episode #86 Lagniappe - Winter Hiking By A Chunky Middle Aged Woman

12 Jan 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Kylena Cross is a long-time hiker and the Head Dame of the Maryland Trail Dames. When not teaching, she can be found leading the Maryland Dames on hik...

Episode #85 - Jan Liteshoe (a Trail Dames story)

05 Jan 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Jan is a freelance writer, award-winning author and journalist, columnist, professional horse trainer, judge, long-distance hiker, and Appalachian Tra...

Episode #84 - 5th Tuesday Special - Sue Turner (Hammock Hanger)

29 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Sue Turner started camping as a child. She became very involved in camping with her children and then became the Outdoor Specialist for the Palm Glade...

Episode #83 - Kathy Sibbald (Bionic Woman 2B)

22 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Kathy Sibbald is 60 years old and originally from NW Pennsylvania. She has lived in Baltimore, Maryland for the last 30 years where she works as a par...

Episode #82 - Jan Liteshoe (a Trail Dames story)

15 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Jan is a freelance writer, award-winning author and journalist, columnist, professional horse trainer, judge, long-distance hiker, and Appalachian Tra...

Episode #81 Lagniappe - 2020 Holiday Gift Giving Guide

08 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Looking for some great gifts to give your favorite hiker? Check out our suggestions for the best gifts out there....from coffee to lip balm to the cra...

Episode #80 - Sue Turner aka Hammock Hanger (a Trail Dames story)

01 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Sue started camping as a child. She became very involved in camping with her children and then became the Outdoor Specialist for the Palm Glades GS Co...

Episode #79 - Tanya Muckelrath (Parachuting Beaver)

24 Nov 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Tanya Muckelrath is a retired jack-of-all-trades. Seriously. Her professional years have been so eclectic, she doesn’t know what to call herself any...

Episode #78 - Tanya Muckelrath (a Trail Dames story)

17 Nov 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Tanya Muckelrath tells how she got her trail name of Parachuting Beaver. It's hilarious!   Connect with Tanya at Instagram: https://www.instagram.com...

Episode #77 - Zoe Langley-Wathen (Part 2)

10 Nov 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Zoe describes herself as a mid-life blogger, speaker, and adventure seeker. She set off to walk the UK's longest national trail in 2011, solo and soon...

Episode #76 - Carla Robertson (a Trail Dames story)

03 Nov 2020

Contributed by Lukas

When Carla Robertson hiked into Maine for the first time, she had to face ALL her fears in one day. Carla Robertson is an inspirational woman and a l...

Episode #75 - Zoe Langley-Wathen (Part1)

27 Oct 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Zoe describes herself as a mid-life blogger, speaker, and adventure seeker. She set off to walk the UK's longest national trail in 2011, solo and soon...

Episode #74 - Zoe Langley-Wathen (a Trail Dames story)

20 Oct 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Zoe describes herself as a mid-life blogger, speaker, and adventure seeker. She set off to walk the UK's longest national trail in 2011, solo and soon...

Episode #73 Lagniappe - The Wonderful Wonderland Trail

13 Oct 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In this week's Lagniappe, Anna recalls her visit to Mt Ranier's endlessly dramatic Wonderland Trail. Official Park Site - https://www.nps.gov/mora/pl...

Episode #72 - Margaret Webster (a Trail Dames story)

06 Oct 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Margaret Webster is a writer, a traveler, and a Trail Dame. You can read more of her writing at her blog, Lessons from the Road USA. In her story, rea...

Episode #71 - 5th Tuesday Special (Backpack Shakedown with a Trail Dames Panel)

29 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

For our fifth-Tuesday-of-the-month podcast, we brought together a varied panel to discuss what they put in their packs. Our three panelists: Roxanne ...

Episode #70 - Kris Van Handel (Hair Tie)

22 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Kris "Hair Tie" Van Handel lives in Madison, Wisconsin, and is an avid hiker. Her book, Hiking with Hair Tie: Section Hiking the Ice Age Trail, is abo...

Episode #69 - Carla Robertson (a Trail Dames story)

15 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In this week's Trail Dames story, Carla Robertson tells us about the tears, the rain, and a voluminous amount of pee in Vermont!! Carla is an inspira...

Episode #68 Lagniappe - The Wide, Wonderful World of Hiking Podcasts

08 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In this month's lagniappe, Anna shares her favorite hiking and outdoor podcasts with you all. As you'd imagine, The Hiking Radio Network is featured f...

Episode #67 - Anna Huthmaker (a Trail Dames story)

01 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Anna shares how a chance meeting on a rainy AT day changed her whole perspective......on hiking and on life! It is amazing what you can learn from a p...

Episode #66 - Kim Starr (Kool Aid)

25 Aug 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Kim Starr, aka Kool Aid, is a 64-year-old woman with a thirst for life and an energy that knows no bounds!! She lives in Ohio and, upon falling in lov...

Episode #65 - Melissa Zimmerman (a Trail Dames story)

18 Aug 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Melissa's first backpacking trip holds some important lessons on the value of FUD's, the importance of practicing first, and the cost of enjoying the ...

Episode #64 -Tami Brooks (Part 2)

11 Aug 2020

Contributed by Lukas

When we left Tami two weeks ago, she was about to head down into the Canyon. Let's find out how it turned out. In 2016, with zero outdoor experience,...

Episode #63 - Kris Van Handel (a Trail Dames story)

04 Aug 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Kris Van Handel shares her love of the Ice Age Trail by reading an excerpt from her book Hiking with a Hair Tie - Section Hiking the Ice Age Trail Hi...

Episode #62 -Tami Brooks (Part 1)

28 Jul 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In 2016, with zero outdoor experience, Tami Brooks decided to hike the Grand Canyon. Aided by a Google search bar and a glass of Cabernet, she made re...

Episode #61 - Dana Ballard (a Trail Dames story)

21 Jul 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Dana Ballard is a musician, teacher, and thanks to a childhood full of family outings to the Smokies, a lover of the outdoors. Connect with Anna, aka...

Episode #60 Lagniappe - Hiking terms and lingo

14 Jul 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Have you ever been reading a hiking book and gotten a little lost? Or perusing a Facebook group only to find that everyone is using a language that yo...

Episode #59 - Melissa Zimmerman (a Trail Dames story)

07 Jul 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Melissa's first backpacking trip holds some important lessons on the value of maps, preparation, and earplugs! And it reminds us all that the very bes...

Episode #58- 5th Tuesday Special with Judyth Wier

30 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Ever since seeing a play named Brigadoon during high school, Judyth had searched for her own Brigadoon. She grew up spending time out of doors through...

Episode #57 - "El" Miller (Bear Spray)

23 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Hiking and camping weren't something El was introduced to as a child but, as an adult, she feels that it has helped her relax. She says, "Hiking feeds...

Episode #56 - Dana Ballard (a Trail Dames story)

16 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Dana Ballard is a lifelong teacher, nature lover, and trail hiker. She teaches high school orchestra during the day and on the weekends, can be found ...

Episode #55 Lagniappe - Meditation Hikes with Stephanie Wright

09 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Want to clear your mind, lower your blood pressure, and just find a bit more peace in your day? Join us on today's Lagniappe podcast as we talk about ...

Episode #54 - MudButt hikes in Africa (a Trail Dames story)

02 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Anna shares her story of a hike through the hills, ridgelines, and ravines of the Arusha National Park in Tanzania, Africa. Connect with Anna, aka ...