The fight for justice takes a shocking turn. As Ian and Shawn Schweitzer return to court, the prosecution refuses to acknowledge the truth—even in the face of undeniable DNA evidence. Instead, they introduce a new, twisted theory, one that defies logic and stretches the bounds of credibility.Then, a bombshell: the walls of deception begin to crack, but will it be enough?Truth is closing in. But so is time.Click HERE to listen to Amanda Knox’s interview with Dr. Richard Leo on her podcast False Confessions. And click HERE to view the National Institute of Justice’s report, “The Impact of False or Misleading Forensic Evidence on Wrongful Convictions”.__You can view the materials referenced in this episode at https://threepodcast.com/chapter-9-factual-innocence/ Please consider donating to Ian’s GoFundMe at https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-ian-schweitzer-after-wrongful-conviction. You can visit www.hawaiiinnocenceproject.org and click the donate button to support them, their work and their clients. Amanda Knox’s new memoir, Free: My Search for Meaning is available at www.amandaknox.com. If you have any information about the abduction and murder of Dana Ireland, we encourage you to contact the Hawai’i Innocence Project at [email protected].
Chapter 1: What happened during the Hawaii Innocence Project hearing?
Randy Roth of the Hawaii Innocence Project attended the hearing alongside members of our team and witnessed these arguments firsthand.
Chapter 2: How did the prosecution respond to the DNA evidence?
The prosecutors were acting as though it didn't matter that what little evidence they had had has pretty much fallen by the wayside along the way. They acted as though you guys may have done terrible things, but for her to use that occasion... with the camera rolling to say, well, you could have been involved in this. I just thought it was very disappointing.
And as a member of the bar in this state, I just, disappointed doesn't quite hit the note that I'm looking for, but I just thought it was outrageous.
This makes me want to scream. But at this point, nothing about the state's actions would surprise Ian or Sean. They've become numb to the antics they are willing to pull to stay squeaky clean.
They already came to the conclusion in their mind that we're going to railroad the Schweitzer brothers and that's it. And we're going to give John Gonzalez his immunity and his mother the immunity and that's it. And we're going to let Mike Ortiz out of jail again.
Well, not only them, I think pretty much everybody on the witness list.
Throughout the hearing, the judge interjects and pushes back, specifically questioning the prosecution's logic. It's deeply uncomfortable to watch a representative of the state take such a righteous stance and dismiss the opportunity to grant actual innocence. But from the beginning, the defense team has hoped the judge they were given would truly listen and rule in an unbiased way.
And Judge Kubota continually proves to do just that. He often responds with critical questions to the state's argument that ongoing investigations justify withholding evidence, especially since Laurel's DNA has been confirmed and he is now deceased.
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Chapter 3: What role did Judge Kubota play in the case hearing?
Okay, I understand what Mr. Pauline's statements were because we went over them many times before. John Gonsalves was the half-brother of Frank Pauline who was arrested or convicted of a drug dealing charge and Frank Pauline offered to give testimony implicating the Schweitzer's in return for favorable treatment for John Gonsalves. So what did John Gonsalves testify to?
that he put at the trial for Ian Schweitzer. He testified to that on the December 24th, 1991, that they had come home, or they had come to the house, that Frank Pauline got out of the car, and he said that he recalls Ian and Sean being there, as well as, I believe, I don't know exact words, but he said there was somebody else, and he didn't know who it was.
Okay, did he testify in Frank Pauline's trial as well? Yes.
I believe so.
All right, all right, all right.
I think the... Hold on. And I think the last portion that I really wanted to talk about is what Sean Schweitzer said. Sean, as far as his change of plea. You know, courts saying don't consider that there was a proffer made or unreliability of the polygraph. Sean Schweitzer came before the court, signed the change of plea form, and did plead.
I think the court has to consider the fact that he did say that on December 24, 1991, he was present during the incident in which Dana Ireland was kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and killed. He admitted to those facts. Sean Schweitzer himself put himself involved in this crime. The court has to consider and determine if someone is actually innocent, the fact that he admitted to his participation.
And I think with that fact that if you take what Sean's statement is, as well as his statement to as well as his change of plea, It could still be consistent with the fact that they left her, left Ms. Ireland at the second scene, a Wawa scene, to die, and that's when Albert Lauro came across her.
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Chapter 4: What new theories did the prosecution introduce regarding the crime?
That after they left her there to die at that scene, that Albert Lauro may have come across her body. Oh, so this theory is that Albert Monroe came across the body after these boys committed the crime.
That could be one theory, yes.
All right. Is there anything else? Nothing.
Nothing else, Your Honor.
All right.
I'm Amanda Knox, and this is Three. Three. Let me reiterate what you just heard. Prosecutor Shannon Kagawa is stating a theory in their case that despite everything they have learned up till this point, they can't confidently say that the Schweitzer's and Frank Pauline Jr. weren't involved in Dana's murder.
You want to believe that our justice system is just, that it always prioritizes the truth over the egos and reputations of the flawed humans who carry it out. But all too often, it doesn't. When I was first accused, I had assumed that the courtroom was like a scientific laboratory, where lots of contradictory evidence was sifted and analyzed and boiled down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt.
It was a painful discovery to learn how naive that was, that the courtroom is more like a battleground of storytelling, where the most compelling and not necessarily the most truthful story wins." In the wake of my wrongful conviction, I wanted to understand how the authorities could have gotten it so wrong.
And that led me to connect with other wrongly convicted people, to see the patterns and to study the cognitive biases that lead well-intentioned people to commit grievous harm, all the while thinking they are delivering justice. One of those biases is referred to by social psychologists as the just world fallacy.
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Chapter 5: What is the significance of the videotaped interview with Albert Laurel Jr.?
Chapter 6: How does the National Institute of Justice report relate to wrongful convictions?
Chapter 7: What patterns lead to wrongful convictions according to Amanda Knox?
And what the DNA testing shows without question is that he had sexually intercourse with Dana Eilish. His semen was on the vaginal swabs. His semen was on the gurney. There was even a semen stain on the GBC t-shirt. It's all Albert Lauro Jr., Now, if that's not probable cause for homicide, I don't know what is.
I am sorry if I am upset and perhaps raising my voice here, and I apologize yesterday at our Roving Room conference for being so passionate about this, but I've been doing this since 1992, innocence cases, and a lawyer since 1975.
And I can't tell you, I have never been more disturbed by the conduct of law enforcement here because we made it clear as day that if they didn't arrest him to take a swab, certainly, there was a clear danger that he would kill himself because obviously there was probable cause to believe he committed a murder.
Now I leave it to Mr. Shigetomi and Mr. Harrison to argue that point further with the court because they are Hawaiian lawyers and they know this from their own experience in cases.
Bill Harrison, representing Ian Schweitzer, focuses his argument on law enforcement's conduct or lack thereof, while also touching on the DNA evidence, the flawed witness testimonies and the lack of physical evidence.
Yes, Your Honor. The court's very familiar with the facts. I'm not going to spend too much time on the facts here. As you know from yesterday's pronouncement by the chief of police here, they spent a period of time with this individual, Mr. Laro, interviewing him, and apparently they had video going at the same time of the interview.
as well as statements and apparently some discussion with some witnesses relative to this matter as well. All of that information is really important. We'll let the court decide that. There's been so much error in this case, Your Honor. Not that we don't believe. the state when they say something. But we want to make sure that we get what we're entitled to.
And we believe the court can be the gatekeeper in that regard by taking all the information that we requested in this motion in chambers and decide what the court will turn over to us. So in short, Your Honor, we believe that we're entitled to this information.
Okay, so here is what Bill Harrison is talking about. According to the Hawaii Innocence Project, the Hawaii PD have a video recording of their interview with Albert Laurel Jr. and an FBI agent was present during it.
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Chapter 8: What arguments did Barry Sheck and Bill Harrison present in court?
Even after 24 years in prison, even after Ian's charges were dropped, and even after someone else's DNA was connected to the case, they persist in searching for guilt that isn't there. I know exactly what that feels like. They found the real killer in my case, whose DNA was all over the crime scene, just two weeks after the murder and nearly a year before I even went to trial.
It didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter today. A cloud of suspicion still hangs over me. To many, I'm still guilty until proven innocent. That is the look on Ian's face. The anxiety that he'll have to prove himself forever and ever. At the very least, I can point to Italy's Supreme Court, which declared me factually innocent. And Ian and Sean deserve the same.
And it's not looking like they'll get what they deserve. But something interesting comes up during this hearing that surprises a lot of us, including the judge. Bill Harrison and Keith Shigatomi both speak to conversations they had with Michael Ortiz, the jailhouse informant, a.k.a. the prison priest, whose testimony led to the second indictment and Ian and Sean's convictions.
Bill Harrison speaks first.
One of the things that's important here is that the whole reason why these two individuals were actually roped into this matter was the fact that some jailhouse snitches said they were involved. And one of the affidavits we presented to the court was my affidavit.
We went up to Saguaro, and this has got to be 10, maybe 10 years ago today, and we interviewed Michael Ortiz, which was one of the main witnesses the state had in this case. And Mr. Ortiz told us that what his testimony that he gave to the court was not true. That, in fact, he got some benefit from testifying on behalf of the state in the case.
He got some... The state apparently offered him something with regard to his parole. I don't exactly know the facts of that or remember the facts of that. But he had mentioned he had lied. And, in fact, the whole testimony he had given was given to him by the investigator who went up from the...
Hawaii Police Department and the prosecutor at the time to actually give him facts that he didn't know about to testify to.
Just note that that's a serious allegation of misconduct. It's not just that the testimony came from a jailhouse snitch who was incentivized to lie, but that the police fed him the story they wanted him to repeat.
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