Syrian refugees are celebrating the end of the Assad regime. But for Omar Alshogre and millions like him, going back to Syria is a complicated decision. This episode was produced by Avishay Artsy, edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Andrea Kristinsdottir and Rob Byers, and hosted by Noel King. Transcript at vox.com/today-explained-podcast Support Today, Explained by becoming a Vox Member today: http://www.vox.com/members Syrians arriving at the border crossing between Lebanon and Syria to return home following the collapse of the Baath Party regime. Photo by Murat Sengul/Anadolu via Getty Images. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Chapter 1: What is the story of Omar Alshogre?
The most beautiful moment was when I was seeing the prisoners being liberated from Aleppo and further to Hama and to Homs. And then when they came close to Syedna prison, it got really serious in my heart because it was a place that I know very well. I spent almost a year there.
That was when Omar al-Shugri was 19 years old. Today he's 29. He's living and working in Stockholm. And he was watching as Syria's dictatorship fell.
I didn't know that a human being could be so happy before. I'm telling you, the joy was so unmatchable. I wanted to laugh so hard. I wanted to jump, but I ended up crying like a baby. And I cried the joy of being free. It's the first time I feel it.
Now Omar has a choice to make. His happy life in Sweden or his newly freed country. Coming up on Today Explained.
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Chapter 2: What was Omar's experience in Syrian prisons?
Chapter 3: How did Omar feel during the liberation of Syria?
I didn't know that a human being could be so happy before. I'm telling you, the joy was so unmatchable. I wanted to laugh so hard. I wanted to jump, but I ended up crying like a baby. And I cried the joy of being free. It's the first time I feel it.
Now Omar has a choice to make. His happy life in Sweden or his newly freed country. Coming up on Today Explained.
Hey, it's Scott Galloway. In today's marketing landscape, if you're not evolving, you're getting left behind. In some ways, it's easier than ever to reach your customers, but cutting through the noise has never been harder. So we're going to talk about it on a special PropG Office Hour series.
We'll be answering questions from C-suite execs and business leaders about how to market efficiently and effectively in today's chaotic world. So tune into PropG Office Hour special series brought to you by Adobe Express. You can find it on the PropG feed wherever you get your podcasts.
In every company, there's a whole system of decision makers, challenges, and strategies shaping the future of business at every level. That's why we're running a special three-part Decoder Thursday series, looking at how some of the biggest companies in the world are adapting, innovating, and rethinking their playbooks.
We're asking enterprise leaders about some of the toughest questions they're facing today, revealing the tensions, risks, and breakthroughs happening behind closed doors. Check out Decoder, wherever you get your podcasts. This special series from The Verge is presented by Adobe Express.
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I'm Noelle King. Before Omar al-Shugri got to Sweden, where he now works for the Syrian Emergency Task Force and for a tech company that makes self-driving cars, he had seen a lot of Europe and a lot of Europe didn't want him.
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Chapter 4: What challenges do Syrian refugees face in Europe?
Greece sent me to Macedonia, then Serbia, Croatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovenia to Austria, Austria to Germany, Germany to Denmark. Everybody was sending you to the next place. Nobody wanted to have you.
Now, before all that, he was 15 and he was thrown in prison like thousands of other people for protesting Bashar al-Assad's regime. Omar was shuttled to something like nine prisons, but he ended up in Sidnaya, the most notoriously brutal. His memories of Sidnaya are still very sharp.
And I can tell you something. Pain makes you say anything. You don't think about the long-term consequences of your false confession. That's going to be sentenced to execution or life in prison. No, you think about stopping the pain right now.
Because every cigarette they were burning me with, every bone they were breaking, everything that was hurting in my body was not even caring about the future, just caring about right now. I want the pain to stop. So I gave them the false confession they wanted. And that false confession stopped. led to them to transfer me to 10 different prisons. Last one was Sayyid Naya.
And the special thing about Syrian prisons is you always dream about them sending you to the prison before the one you are at right now, because it just gets worse. And when you reach Sayyid Naya, that's when you for sure know that you're never coming out. Sayyid Naya is dark. Sayyid Naya is painful. Not the pain itself. It's the fear when you hear people screaming.
And the gods keep torturing them because in Sayyidina Yahya, you're not allowed to scream under torture. So if you're screaming, that means they're beating you until you are quiet. Sometimes you're quiet by death and sometimes you're quiet because you can't breathe anymore or you learned a lesson that you're not allowed to scream.
How old were you when you were in prison there, Omar?
When I was in Sayyidina Yahya, it was my third year in prison. So I was 19 at that time, 18, 19.
You were barely more than a kid.
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Chapter 5: What are Omar's thoughts on returning to Syria?
Chapter 6: What does freedom mean to Omar Alshogre?
29, handsome. I can attest we are on Zoom and happy. You seem very happy. I've seen stories about people in Turkey, in Lebanon, lining up at the borders to just basically walk back into Syria to try to get back in immediately. When your mind goes to when might it be safe for us to return, what do you think?
Firstly, lots of Syrians were not safe in Lebanon. Syrians were killed or tortured or kidnapped and so on. Syrians felt safe in Turkey in the beginning, but in the last few years, They start to feel like they are discriminated against and face racism and so on. Of course, not from the whole country, but some incidents have led to build a perception that Syrians are not welcome in Turkey.
So they were not feeling like they could stay longer. So the fact that Syria was liberated from the Assad regime was a great incentive for them to move immediately. So the streets towards Damascus were so crowded. That being said, I don't think it's safe yet. Because nobody's certain. Nobody knows what's going to happen next week. So it's too early for anyone to return.
I won't encourage people to do it yet. I won't do it myself.
Omar El-Shugri. He works for the Syrian Emergency Task Force as their director of detainee affairs, and he's based in Stockholm. Coming up, millions of Syrians fled during the country's civil war. How others are thinking about the question of when and if to return.
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I spent the weekend at my brother's college graduation. He went to the same school that I did. And so we just had a great time going back to all the old bars that I used to love. I was glad that I had Z Biotics with me. Helped me feel ready to go the next day, feeling normal and like myself.
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Chapter 7: How do Syrians view the future of their country?
Within the country, it's about 70%. six or so million displacements, and in the Northwest it's housed about four million. So these four million have come from other parts of the Northwest as a result of aerial attacks to civilian infrastructure, hospitals, clinics, schools, marketplaces. Some were fleeing forced military conscription. particularly young men of military age.
So really a mixture of reasons. But the Northwest in particular, I would say, really housing the majority of the displaced.
What are you hearing from Syrians who were displaced outside of the country now that Bashar al-Assad is gone? Do they want to go home?
I think yes, but there's a caveat. So absolutely, I think without, you know, getting emotional about this, you can feel the hope. And you can see the resilience of the Syrian people across the world right now. Scenes of people celebrating in almost every country and real solidarity. I think this is a moment in history. This is a moment in time for people.
And before discussing kind of what's next, the apprehension that others might be questioning Syrians about is let's let Syrians have this moment. Let's let them celebrate, rejoice, feel the joy. feel the pain, feel the suffering, excuse me, feel the loss and the family separation, the detainments, the persecutions. This is a bittersweet moment for a lot of people.
And I think it's really important to let them process all of this. But On the other hand, when a lot of Syrians are now either wanting to return or at a minimum just get permission to enter the country to reunite with parents that they haven't seen for 10 years, young men and women that had to leave the country, separate from their families.
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Chapter 8: What does Omar hope for Syria's democratic future?
out of safety or simply because of how much economic deterioration there was. It's also, for me, I'm very cautious about what this means when many say they want to return. Is the time necessarily now? No. Is there a firm timeline? I also don't know. What I would say, especially to host countries, is this is not a moment to exploit asylum policies. This is not a moment to sort of
weaponize this critical point in time and immediately start discussing returns, especially if they're not this trifecta, voluntary, safe and dignified for people.
This has been a contentious issue in some European countries. Have any of them come out since al-Assad was forced out and said, we actually plan to do things differently now?
So it's been a dizzying few days. I believe Austria has. I am cautious to mention names of other countries, but even prior to this moment in time, a few countries have been looking at their migration policies. So this is not a secret. Anyone can Google this. Germany has been looking at its migration policies. Holland has been looking.
Denmark previously is really trying to understand what are the conditions in Syria. So that they can also, I don't know if it's reframe or recalibrate their own migration policies and determine, is it safe for returns and can Syrians be sent back now?
If people were to choose to go back, what are they going back to? What does Syria look like now?
Oh, that's really hard. I mean, a lot of people, it's just home for them. It's just, I'm going back home. I'm going back to, you know, mom and dad or my brothers and sisters that were, you know, five years old before and now they're teenagers. Like the heartwarming story. So many of my colleagues, my team, you know, are going back right now and reuniting with family. And it's so touching.
I think a lot of people had lost hope. There was a clear disillusionment, I would say, with the international system. very demoralized before this. But I do worry that what people are going back to now, you know, the country needs reconstruction, it needs development, it's been destroyed. So there really isn't in certain areas much to go back to. That's not the case for all parts of Syria.
Inflation has hit the country hard. So generally economic insecurity in Syria and outside, which also adds to some of the push-pull factors for some Syrians that have struggled also outside of the country, especially in neighboring countries, unable to afford basic services, basic amenities.
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