Chapter 1: What issues are being raised about the CAO points system?
Today with David McCullough on RTE Radio 1.
The National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals is accusing Irish higher education institutions of manipulating the CAO points system. It's calling for an urgent overhaul of the points race to ensure the fairer allocation of college places in the country. The NAPD is not the first to raise this issue.
Minister for Higher Education James Lawless has said universities were gaming the system. To get a better understanding of the issue, I'm joined by the director... of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals, Paul Crone. Morning, Paul. Good morning, David. Manipulation, that's a fairly serious charge to make.
Chapter 2: How is the lack of transparency affecting college admissions?
What's your belief about what's going on?
Well, I suppose, first of all, there's a lack of transparency. We don't know how many places are available. We don't know how many students are applying for those places. And the calculation of points... is supposed to be based on a supply and demand. So if there's an over demand for a course, points will be higher.
So what people don't realise is that the higher points courses are not necessarily the more difficult courses, they're the courses that there is more demand for. So in a recent report, University of Galway, just by way of an example, we're talking, considering discontinuing their arts course because of a reduction in the number of applicants.
And in the report it said that they had to make a strategic decision in order to keep the points high.
Chapter 3: What are the implications of high points courses on student choices?
So what that actually means in reality is an artificial cap. So they had more places, but to keep the points high and the illusion that the demand is high, they put an artificial cap, which means that points remain high. So if it's done in one place, it's been done all over the place.
Okay, well, I'm sure they'd dispute that characterisation of it. But I mean, the universities want to fill as many places as they can to get as many students as they can in, presumably.
Absolutely. But there is also an element of prestige associated where universities get international funding and research funding. And so if a university has more courses with higher points, then there's a prestige element with that. Which, of course, is our assertion is that that's not student-centred at all.
And we need to be removing barriers for students and let them continue their education into further or higher education without those barriers.
OK, so what do you think the solution is?
The solution is multifaceted. There's no silver bullet for this. But first of all, we need to get around the table. The Transitions Working Group that existed needs to recommence its work.
Sorry, just explain what that is to us both.
That's a group of higher education institutes, university people, education stakeholders, exams people and department officials coming together to look. This group... were responsible for the changing in the grades of the Leaving Cert when it went from A's and B's to H1's and H2's etc.
So that was done to try and make it easier for the points system but equally the agreement at that time is that universities would introduce more common entry courses and that didn't happen in actual fact since 2017 we have more courses rather than less
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Chapter 4: What solutions are proposed to improve the CAO points model?
So we would think part of the solution is the common entry courses, let students into engineering and let them specialise into civil, mechanical, electrical at the end of year one. Same with sciences, general entry courses with matriculation requirements lower than before. It takes the pressure off for students and they can go into university, find their feet and then specialise.
OK, so you apply for an arts course or, as you say, an engineering course or a science course, and then you specialise after that. And you think that would lower the points?
Well, I think, first of all, we do need a matriculation requirement. So what I would say is our engineers do need to be good at maths because we want the bridges to stand, our doctors at biology, et cetera, et cetera.
But if you meet the matriculation requirements and say a minimum academic standard, well, I can't see why we'll be putting additional barriers in students' ways rather than having all of these bespoke high points courses, which means that students have to perform in six subjects at higher level which is increasingly difficult for students.
Is the counter-argument to that not that if you are applying for an academic course where you're going to have to perform well in exams and all the rest of it, is that not a good indicator, a strong leaving cert, an indicator that you might be able to take on that university course?
No, absolutely. We're not advocating for lowering of academic standards. And if you look at the Leaving Cert, students will sit seven subjects of which six are counted. Then they go into university and in general they sit three to four exams. So the universities themselves realise that the load on students is too high with the number of exams that are counted. So, for example, if I was...
a student that was not good at maths, my only option in order to get good points is to go and pay for grinds. If I'm a student that's dyslexic, doing ordinary level English, Irish and modern foreign language, I'm not going to qualify for all of those points, all of those high points courses.
So we need to be looking at it differently and looking at it in a student-centred way rather than this one size fits all.
Okay, there's an argument, and you hear it frequently as well, that too many people are going to university now anyway.
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Chapter 5: How do common entry courses benefit students?
The students know that they have an offer of a place if they get this. In this country, it's an absolute cliff edge. It's a cliffhanger. You're waiting and waiting and waiting. You don't know how many places there are. You don't know what the points, what the demand is. And that information should be available now. So students should know what points they have to aim for and aspire for, even now.
Okay, so you think the universities should say, we have 200 places in engineering or whatever it might be.
Yeah, and they know because the CAO, apart from the change of mind, which is probably plus or minus 2% or 3%, the demand is known. for the courses this year. So why can't we be transparent and say, these are the number of places we have and this is what the points are going to be for entry.
Okay, a couple of texts in on this. One text says, everything Paul is saying is true, but also I have taught in courses where the points dropped and lots of students with low points struggled to pass. Obviously, people with lower points got onto the course. and then weren't able to cope. It led to them struggling for a year only to fail a highly academic course.
It was so difficult to see they should have been using that time better to get on the correct path for them. That was the point I was trying to make to you earlier, actually.
Well, if you look at the tertiary degree, which has been recently introduced to the National Tertiary Office, where students start their degree in further education and then continue on into the university or technological university and finish their degree. I know it's been in operation three years, but it has virtually got a zero dropout rate because the students get the support
that they need to be successful in their studies. And that first year, that transition from post-primary into university is so, so important for students. And because we in post-primary recognise the students are not being prepared correctly for the type of learning they're going to do in university because the Leaving Cert is such a cliff edge, a rote learning type of exam.
Yeah, we have a text in from Joe who says, too many students are going to third level. We need more craftsmen, truck drivers, etc. As a retired academic, I experienced about 40% of students starting a level seven engineering course were not suited for third level, but were probably there because of parents trying to be less snobbish.
And that's the point you were making, Paul, about apprenticeships. Yeah.
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Chapter 6: What is the impact of academic standards on university admissions?
And we need to challenge that and change our thinking.
Yeah. And Suzanne says, in 2006, I was able to get into a general entry science course in Trinity with 475 points and then went on to become a dentist. If I was trying to do the Leaving Cert now, I wouldn't have a hope of becoming a dentist. It definitely needs to change. So I suppose the point you were making about square pegs and round holes comes there.
Absolutely. And I mean, there are so many stories of students who had to go through various pathways and kind of use their own resilience to keep going and keep going and overcome these barriers instead of us having an enabling system that encourages and supports students.
Yeah. Paul, I mean, my impression was that there are nowadays more routes into various different courses than there would have been, you know, years ago when I was doing the leave insert that was very cut and dried, that there are, you know, there's PLCs and there's various other routes that there is a little bit more flexibility in the system maybe now than there used to be.
There's huge flexibility in the system and it's growing, I have to say. There's a lot of work being done through the ETBs, through Solace and the National Tertiary Office to increase those pathways. But there's still an element of, I suppose, prestige associated within Irish society. That just needs to be challenged.
And we need to be able to focus with students so that they pick the correct pathway, the correct career for them.
OK, Paul Crone, Director of the National Association of Principals and Deputy Principals. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Now, have you been breathalysed recently and is it a deterrent? Text us on 51551. We'd love to hear from you on that because we'll be talking about it a little bit later on. But next, how much of your job can be done by AI?
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