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Chapter 1: What is the significance of pay transparency in job applications?
Now, if you applied for a job today, would you expect to know the salary before clicking apply? Data from jobs site Indeed shows a large divide in Irish workplaces, while 92% of childcare jobs list pay up front, just 7% of software roles and 8% of banking and finance jobs do.
A massive new European Union directive aims to end pay secrecy by forcing employers to disclose salary ranges and clamping down hard on the gender pay gap. It's supposed to become law across Europe on June the 7th. Just one problem, Ireland is going to miss the deadline. Joining me now to discuss what this means for workers and businesses are Tara Daly, Managing Director of MSS, the HR people.
And Gareth Murphy, Head of Industrial Relations and Campaigns with the Financial Services Union. Good morning to you both. You're very welcome. Good morning.
Chapter 2: How does the EU directive aim to address the gender pay gap?
Tara, some elements of this directive have been brought into Irish law already, particularly to do with gender pay. But the rest isn't going to be implemented by the deadline of June the 7th. The Department of Children, Disability and Equality says work is ongoing at pace to get legislation ready. Do employers know where they stand?
They really don't, unfortunately. There's a lot of uncertainty out there. Yes, you're right, the gender pay gap reporting. Ireland were ahead of the curve there. We've gotten that across the line. That was a big process for employers.
Chapter 3: Why is Ireland missing the deadline for implementing pay transparency measures?
But there's a lot of any employers that we're dealing with, which would be particularly SMEs, would be in a very uncertain times. They're a bit in limbo. Do we implement things now? Do we wait? Is there going to be more clarity in terms of the legislation that changes the directive in some way?
And so there's that apprehension of, you know, should we move now or should we just wait until the legislation? So, yeah, very much a period of uncertainty.
Because it is quite complicated and it's, You know, I mean, you can see the arguments for introducing it, but it is a burden on businesses, particularly small businesses, so that there's no point in possibly rushing in to introduce new systems if the detail when it's published is going to be different.
Exactly. I mean, you know, it's a big piece of work to get into. If there's going to be any shifts in it, you know, there's no point. And also, you know, you want to make sure it's done right as well, that it suits all the businesses, because, you know, it is going to be a lot on particularly SMEs.
OK, Gareth, your union has called this a generational opportunity. You're very much in favour of it. Are you disappointed the deadline is going to go by?
Yeah, we're very disappointed and frustrated, David, to be honest. The government has had plenty of time to legislate and act on this. It shouldn't be controversial.
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Chapter 4: What challenges do employers face regarding pay transparency?
I mean, pay transparency. It should be reasonably given for workers in this day and age. that they're entitled to talk about pay, they're entitled to see the salaries on job adverts when they go for pay, they're entitled to know the pay ranges, they're applicable, they should be entitled to ask for comparators and pay information in their employment. That should not be controversial.
I mean, who's going to stand up and say they're for pay secrecy in a workplace? So we're really frustrated and disappointed the government hasn't acted. It appears that every time IBEC and big business lobbies to water down workers' rights, the government listens to them and they delay and deny workers their basic entitlements.
But if there's an EU directive eventually, I mean, they might have missed the deadline, but they are planning to bring it in. So they'll have to comply with the directive, presumably.
They will have to eventually, and this makes the delay ridiculous. I mean, they've had plenty of time to legislate for this. And in fairness, they should be providing the clarity that business wants as well so that businesses can accurately implement this.
Just, I mentioned in the introduction those figures from Indeed, the jobs website. Banking and finance, 8% of jobs disclosing pay. Why is the financial sector lagging behind on this?
Yeah, the broader financial services and fintech sector are really poor when it comes to pay transparency. There's very much a culture of don't talk about pay. You know, I've seen contracts of employment that have NDAs, whether they'd even stand up in a court of law, I don't know. But they're there to send a chilling effect to people to say, don't talk about your pay. Now, there is a difference.
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Chapter 5: Why is the financial sector lagging in pay transparency compared to other sectors?
The retail banking sector that collectively bargains with FSU, their pay structures, our pay structures that are agreed are very transparent. You see your pay ranges, they're published on the intranet sites of workplaces. Workers vote on their pay increases that are collectively bargained every year.
So there's quite a difference between the banking sector, the retail banking sector that does collectively bargain versus the greater non-union financial services, who I think are really poor on this issue.
Yeah, Tara, I mean, why is there that disparity? Because I mentioned 92% of childcare jobs, pay is listed up front, only 7% in software, 8% in banking and financial jobs.
I mean, I suppose there's always an element of people not wanting to know everybody's salary all the time. You know, everybody feels a bit apprehensive about everyone knowing everything about their salary. We're all a bit like that. But I think, you know, yes, there is an element of most SMEs when they're advertising, they may not put the rate on it all the time.
But, you know, at some stage it will be disclosed, whether that's through the telephone interview or when they meet them at the interview stage. At some stage, they will be made aware of what the salary range is. But, you know, I think everybody has that level of, you know, let's see what the experience is of the individual and let's get a gauge of that.
We do need that flexibility still in terms of, you know, deciding on the right rate for a particular person for the business.
Yeah. Is that a reasonable point, Gareth? I mean, different people bring different skills to a job or different experience to a job.
I don't really think it is, to be honest, because I think there can be a cycle of low pay where interviews ask questions like, you know, what are you earning now? There is research to say particularly men will over exaggerate what they're earning in order to bulk it up. Whereas women will often just actually answer that honest question or question honestly.
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of pay secrecy in the workplace?
And you can get into cycles of low pay when questions like that are allowed to be asked. And this directive is really important because it's going to get rid of those questions. It's going to actually advertise the pay rate for the role and it will allow workers to talk about pay. And that shouldn't be a fearful thing. I mean, that's a good thing for workers.
Talk about their pay because you know what? They might actually start demanding a little bit more. And for me, that's a good thing in the economy.
Tara, that survey by Indeed showed that people were far more likely to apply for a job if the salary was included in the initial advertisement. So, I mean, companies that don't practice pay transparency might be harming themselves?
Yeah, I think, yeah, there is some truth to that, that people will be more inclined to apply more immediately if there's a rate written on it. But most employer candidates will inquire either, as I said, on the phone or at the interview stage.
And most employers will give them an indication of what that is, whether it's it may not be in the advertisement, but they will certainly give them some sort of indication of what that is. But I do think, yeah, people do at some stage need to know that information. So, you know, that's not unreasonable.
Gareth, your union wants to go further than the directive. You want a mandatory legal rule that if a company has a gender pay gap over 5% that isn't fixed within six months, they must co-develop a plan with a union. You want the company to pay you to come up with a plan.
Is that it? Well, not to pay us.
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Chapter 7: How can collective bargaining improve gender pay equity?
No, we want the company to collectively bargain with us to co-develop action plans on gender pay. And there's a good reason for this. We've had gender pay reporting and information for a number of years now. And information reporting is a good thing, right? But it's only the start of a process. We've had it for a couple of years now and the gender pay gap is not going away.
In fact, in some finance companies, it's actually getting worse. So there's a necessity now, we believe, for companies to co-develop, to collectively bargain on agreed action plans that have reduction targets, time bound targets, that look at gender audits on performance ratings, because performance ratings are often linked to performance related pay. So we want gender audits on that.
We want a culture of flexible working, remote working, hybrid working, part time working companies. At all levels of the companies, because again, there's research to say that a lot of women won't apply for promotions for fear of losing some of the flexibility that they have. And we want to end that barrier. We want that much greater equality in the workplace.
We feel that collectively bargain plans are a necessity.
OK, Tara, if companies aren't resolving the problem, perhaps it does need something like that to solve it.
Well, I think the first point that I would make is that we do need to differentiate between the larger organisations and the smaller organisations. So a company with 5,000 employees cannot be treated the same as somebody with 50 plus employees.
You know, we do need to have some sort of different structures there to take into account the reality of the lack of resources that are internally within a smaller organisation versus a very large organisation. You know, the joint pay assessment is already factored into the pay transparency directive.
I do feel that that's probably going to provide a lot of what's needed in terms of making this a success.
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Chapter 8: What future steps are needed for effective pay transparency legislation?
But ultimately, from our point of view, it will be, you know, making sure that hopefully there's a differentiation between the larger organisations, their obligations and the smaller companies. And also factoring into it that, you know, we need time to prepare. At the moment, we don't have the legislation, so...
We're looking for a more multi-year plan where we've actually practical application can take place to make it a success, which ultimately is a good thing for everybody and everyone wants it to be a success.
OK, text in here. A study showed the CHAT GPT advised women to ask for lower salaries than men. The gender pay gap is now so established an inbuilt salary transparency would help so much. So we'll wait and see. Do you expect it to be in in the short term, Gareth?
Yeah, well, we're already collectively bargaining with a lot of employers to implement it. So I think that will put pressure on the government to legislate quickly and they need to do it.
And you'd like more clarity as soon as possible, Tara? Absolutely, yeah. OK, Tara Daly, Managing Director of MSS, the HR people, and Gareth Murphy, Head of Industrial Relations and Campaigns with the Financial Services Union. Thank you both so much for joining us.
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