Chapter 1: What sanctions are being proposed against the State of Israel?
A bill to impose sanctions on the State of Israel will be debated in the Dáil today. It would result in a complete boycott on all economic relations between Ireland and Israel, if enacted. Joining me now for more on this is Richard Boyd-Barratt, People Before Profit TD for Dun Laoghaire, who drafted the bill, and also Barry Ward, Fine Gael TD, also for Dun Laoghaire. Good morning to you both.
Richard Boyd-Barratt, good morning to you. Your bill is coming up for a second stage debate, I think.
Second stage debate, yeah.
So what is the argument for introducing this legislation?
Very simply, Israel is guilty of the worst crime possible, which is genocide. It is in violation of the Genocide Convention. It's slaughtered 75,000 people in Gaza. It's destroyed Gaza. It's engaged in an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing on the West Bank. It operates an apartheid system. It's guilty of the collective punishment of the people of Gaza for nearly 20 years.
It is in violation of just about all human rights law internationally. And yet we still haven't imposed any sanction on this state. I mean, it's now helped in unleashing a war across the Middle East, which is impacting the entire world. It's a complete rogue regime.
Is it the only rogue regime on earth? No.
No.
So why are you uniquely picking out Israel for sanctions?
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Chapter 2: What is the argument for introducing sanctions on Israel?
Not only do they not give those people the right to return, but they continue in an ongoing systematic campaign on... of ethnic cleansing, and then, of course, the worst crime of all, the genocide, for which it's now in the dark. And yet we don't impose a single sanction. Well, it's in the dark. It hasn't been convicted.
Yes, but our government has joined with South Africa under pressure, I would say, but it has done it because presumably our state believes it is guilty of genocide.
And I think any reasonable person looking at the horror that has been visited on Gaza and if just they listen to the statements of the leaders of the Israeli regime talking about the annihilation of the people of Gaza, referring, saying it's justified to kill all adults in In Gaza, the Deputy Speaker of the Israeli Parliament.
You know, I mean, you just don't hear this sort of horrific rhetoric or the practices from any other regime. And it should be treated, in our view, in the same way as apartheid South Africa was treated. OK.
I want to bring in your constituency colleague, Barry Ward of Fine Gael. Morning, Barry.
Morning, David, how are you?
Now, as Richard points out, our government, your party leader, the Tóniste, also the Taoiseach, have said that Israel is guilty of genocide. We're a signatory of the UN Genocide Convention. We've taken a strong stance on Gaza, stronger than many other EU countries. Surely the government should be supporting this legislation if it believes that Israel is guilty of genocide.
Well, the first thing is I agree with much of what Richard has said. I'm appalled by the actions of Israel. I think most Irish people are. I agree with the notion that there should be sanctions on Israel and I would like to see that come to pass. So there's lots in Richard's bill and the spirit of it that I absolutely agree with.
The difficulty I have is that sanctions are not something we do unilaterally as a country. And Richard, I know, has previously spoken about this. He's referred to the swiftness with which sanctions were imposed on Russia when they behaved similarly in terms of invading Ukraine.
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Chapter 3: How does Richard Boyd Barrett justify the sanctions against Israel?
So we need to build a critical mass of them within the Commission.
I want to bring Richard back in. What Barry is saying is that your bill is all well and good, but legally we can't do it.
First of all, I don't believe that's true. We are signatories of the Genocide Convention. And I don't believe for one minute anybody would have a legal case in Europe against us for acting on our obligations under the Genocide Convention, which, remember, was signed to prevent the recurrence of horrors like...
The genocide that happened by the Nazis against the Jewish people and many others during the Second World War, the Holocaust, right? That is about never again. And it's happening now. And we have an obligation. Every state has an obligation under that convention to act to prevent, not just to punish afterwards, not to sort of just wait until...
for somewhere down the line for there to be accountability, but to actually prevent. And at the moment, for example, this week, the currency revealed that €20 million of exports to the IDF were approved by the Irish government in 2024. Shocking, right? In the midst of the genocidal slaughter in Gaza, the Irish government, and there was a major surge in exports, dual-use exports to the IDF.
Could you just explain for listeners dual-use exports?
This is technology that could be used for civilian purposes, but could also be used for military purposes. And do we know what it was used for? we know that the end user was the Israeli military, right? So the idea that, and it was a massive surge to 20 million of exports in 2024, the previous year was less than 2 million.
So it clearly would suggest a major, major, you know, being linked to the military assault that was going on in Gaza, that there was such a surge. And the government approved it. The government approved it. Absolutely shocking.
Let's ask Barry Ward about that. Do you know anything about that story in The Currency, Barry Ward?
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Chapter 4: What is Barry Ward's perspective on the proposed sanctions?
It can't just be because we're unhappy.
Okay, so it has to be in accordance with European law.
The end user is the Israeli military. And even the fact that the level of exports that was improved jumped to 20 million that year. Previously, it was, sorry, I should say in 2023, it was 12 million. These are the years of the genocidal assault. And then before that, it was only a million exports. and sometimes below 100,000, right?
Now, surely that would have been a flag, a red flag for the department to say, hold on a sec. The Israeli military machine is involved in a genocidal slaughter in Gaza, and there's a sudden surge in the exports to that very Israeli military during that period. I mean, that's pretty strong circumstantial evidence that the end user is using what's being exported as part of that
genocidal assault in Gaza. So, I mean, and the idea that you're approving exports to the Israeli military machine and that somehow you can sort of parse apart bits that aren't being used to kill people when that same outfit, that same entity, the Israeli military, are actually slaughtering people in what we now believe, and the Irish state believes, to be a genocide. I mean, it's ridiculous.
And the question is, are we going to do anything? Even now, are we going to do anything about it? Is the government going to support our bill? Are you going to support the bill today?
Richard, listen to me now for a second, OK? Because I'm disgusted by what the IDF is doing. I'm disgusted at the fact that any company is dealing with them. But unfortunately, my disgust is not a legal basis for the government of Ireland to refuse an export licence. We have the right under the Genocide Convention. We have the right under the Genocide Convention.
Richard, the number of those export licenses fluctuates massively, whether it's with the IDF or anyone else. And the reality is that we have to exercise within the rule of law. At the same time, we're criticizing for Israel for not operating within the rule of law. We can't then turn around and do it just because it's expedient for us to do it. And you say it.
You say, ah, come on, Richard, but I'd say this to you. You come on. You're selling an idea to people that if we support this bill, that's going to change things when you know that it is legally unsound. It is not permissible for Ireland to make unilateral sanctions actions.
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Chapter 5: What legal challenges exist for Ireland in imposing sanctions?
I'm saying if we don't stop Israel, we'll all suffer. In fact, we all are suffering. The people of Palestine are suffering in the most horrific way. The people of Lebanon are suffering.
There will be blowback on American companies based here.
I don't believe the American company. No, I don't actually, because American companies are here to make profits. I don't think their investment decisions will be determined by our foreign policy. I think that's frankly scaremongering.
But there is legislation in many American states which bans doing business if there's boycott legislation in place.
Well, first of all, our obligations under the Genocide Convention and under international law and our commitment to human rights can't surely be based on whether we think there may be economic blowback. I mean, I'm sure Barry wouldn't have said if there was any negative economic consequences of sanctions on Russia, we shouldn't impose them.
You know, Barry would have been very... Well, Barry didn't raise the issue of economic blowback, I did. In fact, he specifically said that shouldn't determine our outcome.
No, but I don't think... Anybody has suggested that we should have considered the economic blowback when we were discussing and imposing sanctions on Russia. Why would we consider the economic potential blowback, which, by the way, I think is exaggerated, when we're discussing sanctions against Israel for genocide, for apartheid, for ethnic cleansing?
OK.
for all the crimes that the regime is committing.
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