Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Now it's time for our Friday gathering and this week I'm joined by Barry Ward, Fine Gael TD for Dun Laoghaire, Padraig Tobin, Leader of AIM2 and TD for Meath West, Mary Regan, Political Editor with the Irish Independent and Gráinne Nia, Senior Ireland Reporter with PA Media. Hello, welcome, thanks a million for joining us. I might start with the vote on Sinn Féin's abortion legislation.
Barry, you voted in favour of this but 23 of your 38 Fine Gael colleagues voted no. The party is hopelessly divided on this, isn't it?
Well, as you know, there was a free vote on this. I'd be worried, actually, if everybody still voted the same way. The notion that there are different opinions within a large party like Fine Gael, I think is a good thing. I did vote for it. It doesn't mean that I am in favour of abortion or I think abortion is a good thing or anything like that.
But I do think, and we've all looked at this in the last number of years in detail, that I do think it's the decision that has to be made by each individual. And I think you have to trust women to have already thought about that decision very carefully and to allow them to make that decision rather than being paternalistic or having the state make that call for them.
OK, and this legislation, if it was passed, would remove the three day waiting period. Now, that was included in the legislation in 2018. It was a promise made by Fine Gael to middle ground voters.
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Chapter 2: What are the differing opinions on Sinn Féin's abortion legislation?
Are you now changing the goalposts after people voted?
Well, I wouldn't say that. There's two things about that. The first is there are reviews built into the legislation as well. But first and foremost, the principle of democracy is that when you elect TDs, you elect people who make, you're delegating a decision-making function to them in relation to the law. Now, I have voted completely consistently. I voted, I supported the repeal of the 8th.
I have consistently said that I am pro-choice. As I say, you know, this is a difficult issue. And I think, you know, anybody finds himself in that position is in a very difficult position. But I, when I say I'm pro-choice, what I say is I want to have confidence in that woman or... or that couple to make that decision for themselves rather than having the state do it for them.
And that's why I think they should be allowed to do it. The three-day waiting period is something that was absolutely part of the campaign, but it is also in the law, and people have to trust their legislators to make the right decision according to what they have said previously, and I've been completely consistent on this.
Okay, Padraig Tobin, you voted against. There was a clear majority, 86 in favour. You had the other opposition parties, you'd seen your figures in Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael voting in favour, but you're fighting a losing battle, aren't you?
No, not necessarily, actually. I think people were surprised by the amount of Fianna Fáilers who voted against it, given that the two leaders of those parties very clearly, I suppose, came out in advance to show the other TDs which way to vote in that. For us, the really key element of this is that the three-day wait, the three-day reflection period has been shown to work.
So we know that there are about 10,000 women who went to the first abortion appointment that didn't go to the second one. Now, there's lots of reasons why they didn't go to the second one.
It doesn't mean they didn't end up having a termination.
Well, there's no evidence to say that they went on to, let's say, other abortion appointments as such outside of the hospital sector, which is a very small fraction of that particular figure. So we do know that there are thousands of women who actually took advantage of that wait period who went on to have their children.
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Chapter 3: How does Barry Ward justify his vote on abortion legislation?
And the big problem that I have in relation to this is that the review of it and the government have never spoken to one of those women. they've never spoken to one of those children in relation to, was this a beneficial element of your decision-making process?
And that was raised, I think, at the Oireachtas Health Committee and the researchers said that it would actually be unethical so to do.
Well, first of all, dozens of mothers have called me and contacted myself saying, feeling that it really frustrated and angry that their voice is not heard in relation to this at all. And many who said that they were in a crisis situation, you know, it was very, very difficult if they were able to take an abortion pill on their first consultation, they would have.
But within the three day wait, they found that actually there were supports out there. It was possible to do and they decided to go ahead and do it. So the idea that that whole sector of this process will be deleted from this discussion is wrong.
But they might have changed their mind anyway.
Yeah, but like I'm telling you, dozens of mothers have called me to say that this has been and the fact that none of them were even contacted by the review or by the government in relation to this.
Removing the three day, the mandatory three day wait does not mean that women won't be able to wait three days.
No, it doesn't. Yeah, I agree.
That doesn't mean that will change and they could wait a week. They could wait. The point is... If they're within the 12 week limit. Of course, yeah. If the timeline allows for it, that can still happen.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of removing the three-day waiting period?
So in the case of an abortion, like you cannot bring the child back after that decision. It's a lifelong decision. And also, you know, many women have abortion regrets as such. And in a case like as such importance. And this is a life and death question. It is really important that we ask for reflection. Reflection is not a bad thing. But it can still happen is the point. It can still happen.
But what we're saying is that reflection is good anyways.
And you're asking the woman and her doctor at the time to say, decide between the two of them how long they wait instead of the state saying, this is the amount of time we're telling you you have to wait.
Yeah, so people voted, a large number of people voted for the repeal referendum on the basis that this small protection would remain in place.
Well, I don't know that we know that for a fact. No, exactly. Padder's extrapolating a number of things.
So even an example in the Dáil, there's a number of TDs who actually campaigned for repeal who voted no in the circumstances because they themselves, campaigners for repeal, realised that actually this was an important element to the situation. And, you know, what we're talking about is a medical consultation.
Now, we're told that this is healthcare, and yet we're told to delete the medical consultation with the doctor in advance of this particular process. No, that's not what's said. And also, just to say, this consultation can already happen on the phone. It can already happen via Zoom at the moment. And another thing, this year there's been two cases that have been brought to court.
There's been two convictions for coercive abortions where... The male partner forced the women in the situation to actually have an abortion. And those individuals have had sentences as a result. And it's harder to actually assess whether there is coercion in this situation if you're talking about giving the abortion pill on the first consultation.
Barry Ward. I just think this comes down to trust and individual decision-making. I just do not believe that it is for the state or Padder or the Dáil to tell women how long they should or should not wait. We have to trust that this is... Padder's absolutely right in this. It is a massive decision to make. I don't envy anybody who finds themselves in this situation. It's incredibly difficult.
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Chapter 5: What arguments does Padraig Tobin present against the legislation?
It has put some sort of pressure on the government, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, you know, to different degrees. But it has also kind of manoeuvred them as a more left-wing party in the wake of the by-election.
And Sinn Féin were just after voting against the Social Democrats bill, which would have gone further.
It manoeuvres another opposition party who were critical of Sinn Féin in the wake of the by-election. So it is a very interesting political move by Sinn Féin. And as Mary said, this will become an issue almost out of nowhere, once again, for the parties on what they stand for or where exactly the line is for them on how willing they are to change the 2018 legislation.
I think what Sinn Féin did right was to be very focused in the bill. So this is the third time the Dáil has voted on abortion this year. And neither the previous occasions garnered such debate or such... attention. This time, the health spokesperson for Sinn Féin, David Cullinan, he wanted to do just one thing and that was the three-day wait.
He wasn't looking for any sort of further unpicking of the legislation that is there. And in so doing, he now has a chance for that party to get one of its policies on the legislature. something that opposition parties rarely achieve. So if that is achieved, I think that'll be sort of on Sinn Féin's part. They're doing what their voters maybe ask them to do.
But I think it suits the government parties too that Sinn Féin brought this forward. It was recommended in the Marie O'Shea report and the Minister for Health, Jennifer Carroll-McNeill, backed the Sinn Féin motion as did the Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael party leaders. So in many ways...
Maybe the government would have to have brought this onto the agenda at some stage and it might have suited them for Sinn Féin to have brought it onto the agenda from their own party basis.
Just on the political aspect of it, Padraig Tobin, I mean, is this stoppable and where is it stoppable from your point of view?
Well, I think the analysis is correct here. I think this is more about inter-party competition in relation on the issue of Worsham than anything else. It's ideological. It's not based on evidence. It's about more access.
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Chapter 6: How do personal experiences shape perspectives on abortion?
So the very disincentive the government is trying to put in place to bring these buildings back into use is not being affected at local government level. So you can understand the frustration. They're absolutely right to act on it if it's not working and change it. And therefore, I think what the Tanya just said is fair enough.
Okay, Pat or Tobin, I mean, clearly it's not working at the moment.
First of all, the government is one of the biggest sinners in relation to this. First of all, there's 4,000 empty local authority homes today. There's enough empty local authority homes to actually house everybody who's homeless in the state. I did an audit of the departments a number of years ago, which showed that there were 547 vacant properties.
OPW told me a couple of weeks ago, they have 70 vacant properties at the moment. Eireann Rodairn has 100 vacant properties at the moment. So the state themselves is one of the biggest hoarders of vacant properties in this country. And it's just the cheek of the taunt to blame somebody else for the problem is typical of what's happening in this country.
But if the local authorities were given the power to impose a levy and they haven't done it, is that not a failure on the part of local authorities?
Yeah, listen, I've no doubt, first of all, that local authorities are under fierce pressure in terms of resources and in terms of powers as well. I do support this taxation in terms of dereliction. But there's other reasons why buildings are derelict too. So regulations is a big barrier for people to be able to get buildings back into use.
Even like, you know, there's been a lot of talk about above the shop accommodation for about 20 years nearly in this country. But there's so much regulations in terms of, you know, access points, in terms of fireproofing. And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about like deleting regulations. We want safe accommodation.
But the regulations are costing massively for builders to be able to get these properties back into use.
So should you remove the regulations? or not. You seem to be arguing both sides of the question.
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