Welcome to another episode of my TWC podcast, where we dive deep into the real world of dog training and behavior. Today, I’m thrilled to have Jacqui Zakar join me. Jacqui is a professional dog trainer based in Perth, Australia, and the founder of Dog Sense Training and Behavior. She’s not just a trainer—she’s an investigator, spending countless hours combing through past and current canine research papers to expose the flaws and misleading narratives that are flooding the industry worldwide.Jacqui and I have had extensive private conversations on these topics, which led us to record this podcast. If you’re a dog trainer feeling confused or frustrated by the current propaganda being pushed by ideologists, this episode is for you. Together, we’ll cut through the noise and bring you clarity, context, and practical insights.Make sure to like, share, and subscribe to stay connected and help us spread the word. Let’s get into it!For more information about Ivan Balabanov's Dog Training School and information on how to train your dog using the Training Without Conflict® system, check out: https://trainingwithoutconflict.comhttps://malinois.comhttps://premierprotectiondogs.comPlease like, comment, and share with your dog friends💪🏼
Chapter 1: Who is Jacqui Zakar and what is her background?
No problem. Thank you so much for having me on. I've been really looking forward to it. I guess I'm not the kind of normal dog trainer person that you would speak to because I got started quite late in dog training.
And when I first got started, which was pretty much 2015, I kind of started training more seriously and started learning from a few trainers and then started my business the following year. But, you know, I've got a very special interest in all the industry stuff and, you know,
the wars and the research and you know how people interpret it and I even though I started quite late and I was very aware that I was a little bit behind behind the curve so to speak I now look back like you often do and I feel like it's been a bit of a gift because I think the industries I've worked in previously have really contributed to my interest in what goes in what goes on in the dog training world so yeah I was raised in
New Zealand. So I'm a Kiwi and moved to Melbourne in the early 90s and then moved to Perth about a couple of years later. And then around the 2000, I lived in London for about four years because my parents are English. So European passport is always helpful if you want to stay in London a bit longer than your visa would let you. And I took my border collie with me to London.
So she came on the tube with me and which was really, really cool. But In terms of my background, I have a degree in psychology. So when I graduated with that degree, I worked in mental health for a while and I worked with seriously mentally ill people. Most of my clients or residents had a schizophrenic diagnosis or comorbidity.
Pretty much all of them heard voices and I worked in like a residential setting with them for people that had come out of hospital and were trying to get to a point where they could kind of go out into the community again. And what I think I got from that was part of my job was advocating for these residents. Like I would go to their psychiatrist appointments with them.
I'd drive them there because a lot of them weren't really at a place where they could do that. And working in that and kind of seeing their experience really showed me how broken the system can be. Like a lot of the psychiatrist appointments I would go to, the doctor wouldn't even make eye contact with them. It'd be pretty much like, oh, how are you going?
Yep, okay, here's your script, off you go. You know what I mean? And I was like, which I found quite shocking because you assume that the system knows what they're doing and they're really trying to take care of people. But I've realized that the system in mental health in Australia, and I think it's probably quite similar in the UK and the US, it's really a management system.
It's not so much a recovery system. And the non-for-profit organization I worked for worked from a recovery model. So sometimes that was quite challenging that we would be pointing things out to the people that kind of had a lot of control over our residents and we couldn't get them kind of advocacy that they needed.
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Chapter 2: How did Jacqui transition into dog training?
I'm glad because I almost wasn't going to mention that because I thought people will scream at the screen. You idiot. Like, I don't know what you're doing.
Tell me a little more. I'm probably not the only one that will be interested in the school that you went. Was that like online, in person? How long? This is always of interest to me.
Yeah, the name is the National Dog Trainers Federation of Australia and it's a year-long accreditation and it's mainly online but you have two quite large block periods that you, for me there was no practical in Perth so I had to fly to Melbourne for 10 days and you did two blocks so everything that you've learned you go over there and you practice and it's the classroom setting and
You've got hands on dogs and I absolutely loved it. Like to be able to go away for 10 days and it was just dogs. Like it was fantastic. And I'd say it, I mean... obviously very grounded and positive reinforcement. Like we were learning Grisha Stewart's bat and everything to do with aggression was pretty much positive reinforcement because it's like an entry course.
But you also get that balanced approach. I believe most of the course is actually based on Steve Lindsay's books because it was created, I think maybe 10, 15, oh no, it'd be longer now, maybe 20 years ago. But yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think it's the only balanced accreditation in the country. Most of the other ones are all force-free.
And the funny thing is I did consider those before I got started. And I look back and I think, wow, I wonder how my path would have been different. You know what I mean? If I'd done one of the other ones. Yeah. Because I can get quite passionate with my opinions and I wonder, would I have been like one of the first extremists?
But then I think to my German shepherd, Zolli, and I probably wouldn't have been because I know it wouldn't have worked for him. But, yeah, interestingly enough, like one of my favourite instructors when I did my accreditation, I started in 2015, I'm now on the board with for an organisational course
called Professional Dog Trainers Australia, which was started about three years ago now by a trainer named Steve Courtney just to bring some representation into Australia that kind of covers all trainers because we don't have that here. So we're involved in like, you know, the tool bands and sitting in government meetings, like going over the tool band processes.
We were involved in the IGP training. situation i think it was in south australia where they wanted to change the criteria to igp dogs are considered attack dogs and luckily that got over yeah didn't they even ban it for a little bit altogether in in one of the states yeah in victoria um i'm not sure if it's
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Chapter 3: What are the challenges in the dog training industry?
But whenever I say, well, force-free is doing this, I'm really talking about that radical kind of extremist person end. And I don't know how large that part of the community is, but I think it's pretty large. I find it difficult to connect with many trainers online that are more moderate and even interesting. Anything I have to say. And I think, like you said, you've lost a little bit of hope.
And I think the reason for that is that you've got to have curiosity if you want to take a step like that and hear somebody. And I just think at that end, there's no curiosity because they believe, you know, a balanced trainer and whether you like that term or not, it just makes it easier to, to speak that way is, is like shutting down dogs and being violent.
And they just don't believe in engaging with anybody like that. So I think that's the, Tricky point. I think speaking with more moderate force-free trainers may open the eyes of some of them, but I think sometimes the force-free trainers, as you've seen, the force-free trainers that do speak to balanced trainers are almost vilified more than the balanced trainers. True.
Yeah, very true. But I agree. I mean, when I have to say something not so positive about the force free trainers. I always have those force free trainers that actually are forcing their ideology on us.
And, and, and as you said, I, I, they are not, they're not handful of people, unfortunately, um, that there is a, uh, I wouldn't say it's a big number, but they, they have a strong community and they, they, um, I feel like they're in a mission to just try to shut down and do what they think is the right thing for everybody, which is kind of ridiculous to begin with. I don't know.
It's frustrating, but as I said, I have in a way given up. I've learned a lot over the last few years about who they are and One of the things that always amazes me lately is that I start to realize that they really believe that if you're using any form of a verse F for any reason, That means that you are not understanding what positive reinforcement can do.
You don't know anything about schedule reinforcement. You don't know anything about reinforcement delivery, pre-max principle, extinction burst, markers, cues, jackpots, and all these things. Financial reinforcement, it's like, no, you don't know anything. Because if you do, then you wouldn't have to use adversity. And I have so much to talk about this, but nobody wants to have that conversation.
And in some way, you know, it is what it is. But they really live in a bubble where everything is just made up. It goes against any fundamental biological, like any laws of how life on earth functions, it goes against. It's like just a fake reality in a lot of ways, you know? And on top of that, like, I mean, you know, and you know, like when we spend some time
going over their studies, it's, at this point, they're not even cherry-picking data anymore. It's like, I'll try design to produce a desired outcome. It's not like a... And that's what makes me lose hope that any conversation can be productive. And there hasn't been, I mean,
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Chapter 4: How does the pharmaceutical industry influence dog training?
Yeah, Emery Johnson's a force-free trainer, isn't she?
Oh, big time. I mean, like, genuinely in a good way, not just blowing up smoke. Like, she's really... believes in doing the best possible approach for the dogs. And she is convinced that it's the force-free approach. So you know that there is no... Yeah, I don't know how much I want to even talk about that study because it was a very good study. Like, it was a really, really good study.
we approached a lot of people to offer either advice on what they would do as force-free trainers or be part of the study. Like that study that Clive and Anne-Marie did, anybody can replicate it tomorrow if they wanted to. And if they have any questions, they will answer their questions the same day to help them replicate it.
Now, if I try to replicate Daniel Mill's study, the famous Lincoln University, there is zero chance. It's like swimming in muddy water looking for your iPhone that you dropped in a lake. There's zero chance. And if you, well, I have tried to talk to him several times. That's the interesting thing with most of the people that do that research.
It's not that they hide, but they hide when they feel that they will be challenged. But they are very open to show up at any conference, any podcast, any speaking engagement where they know for sure that they're going to get praised for what they do. And, you know, like... I mean, being a dog trainer or being a scientist, like you have idea, you, you, you're trying to show something.
And if I was to say something, I would be, you know, when somebody challenges that I would be interested to hear. Anyway, I was talking to him a few times over the years and to the point that we were almost going to have a podcast. But then all communication stopped, like just abruptly stopped. And I tried a few more times and there was just no point. And that's on them.
And that's kind of what I mean by... If you don't want to really have that conversation, have that debate, have your findings challenged, prove that you're right or accept that something you might be wrong about. It's a strange thing to say that you're doing science at this point. You know, it's like, it's an ideology, it's dogma. It's just not, I don't know.
I mean, the same happened with Simone Muller, you know, and just like you, I go everywhere. Like I... I pay for any online conference, webinar, being AVSAB, being APDT, being aggression conference, whatever it is. I'm genuinely curious to see what people do and if there are any takeaways, always. I mean, I'm really familiar with Simone Muller's approach to predation.
And just as you said, like I was, I even asked at one point, I can... I mean, I certainly have a lot of dogs and cases here that we can try to work online or she can refer any of her people that finished her course that they can help with some dogs. And to me, at least it was interesting because
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Chapter 5: What does evidence-based dog training really mean?
Eduardo Fernandez's work kind of mirrors his work in a lot of ways. They really, like in a lot of ways, he just copies it and presents it as a work. I'll explain and see if I make sense to this, but going back to Seidman's ideas, it's like, okay, well, let's say coercion is... it has the fallouts. And let's say that coercion and aversive control are one and the same, which they are not.
This is just a ridiculous thing to even talk this way, but let's say they are. If I think and I say, well, so what can we do? What are our options then? And everything starts to lead towards errorless learning.
And then I've listened to at least four very long presentations that Sidman did on errorless learning way back, like when it was a hot topic, when Skinner was just thinking that that's just going to take over the world. which would have been great. But this is now, what, 50, 60, 70 years ago, and it hasn't happened. So the alternative answer that they proposed, it's not there.
Like, it's really not there. We know error-less learning has extreme limitations. We know trial and error has, I don't know, I get so frustrated with this.
Me too. Sorry, go ahead.
No, like it really, that's when you start to kind of peel that onion, that's where it goes. Like, okay, so what do we do? And eventually we're going to say, well, we just, it's errorless learning. Where in our planet errorless learning really flourishes? Like we're talking slightly more complicated tasks and errorless learning is in deep trouble. Like we're not talking anything
complicated just just just you throw a little curveball into the errorless learning and we have a problem a big problem exactly
And I know in Dr. Fernandez's study, which I've only gone over once, so I haven't gone over it in extreme detail. And I know you have to control variables. So it's not that I'm criticizing this, but I think they excluded some dogs from that study because their food drive wasn't high enough. And you've got to have an equal playing field.
um just to show the results so it's i'm not saying oh my god they shouldn't have excluded them because i understand why but that's the reality like as trainers working with dogs day to day like that's what it all comes down to there's so much nuance there's no way you can look at these things in black and white and that's where like negative reinforcement even like
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Chapter 6: Why is there a divide between training methodologies?
But isn't there an argument that we shouldn't get rid of one thing until we find an effective alternative? And just wasn't interested in hearing it because of the welfare concerns, you know?
But their claim is that they have found the alternative and it works and it's superior. And this is the problem that we're, you know, faced with.
And then you list the Lincoln study as proof.
Right. You know, like going back to even the Lincoln study, like he, again, because I've been trying for so long to talk to Dr. There was a, and he has said this few times in different occasions, that he doesn't argue about electric fences. He argues about electric colors. And the argument is that, well, because of the human error.
Right.
And you know, it's a shitty argument. And even if that's your argument, then at least be very open about it. Don't try to make a funny study that proves nothing. I mean, I'm sorry that I'm so direct about it, but
But it is really just nonsense that nobody knows what happened unless you really try to dig in and try to find some pictures and snippets of videos to actually understand what was going on. The whole force-free community swears by it. And they truly believe that this is the answer, that they have the answer. But then when it comes to demonstrate it, it's not there.
And it's the same with dog training, with competitions. Are there any great force-free trainers that do protection sports?
Yes.
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of banning aversive training tools?
And I think the argument there will always be, oh, well, you don't need to use aversives for sport. It doesn't matter if you don't win so much. But if you're not progressing and successful and your dog's not doing well, then you probably won't do it as much. And then you've got a dog that isn't being involved in that sport that they love so much.
Like just because you use a minimal aversive amount in sport doesn't mean that the dog's terrified to walk on the sport field. That's what they... want to argue with. I really like the analogy that you give with the hot hands. Like it's part of a game. If it's clear and you understand it, it's not going to cause long-term issues and you can both get on with enjoying the game with the rules.
Like that's the reality.
The most interesting games are there is an aversive element to it. Most interesting games. And then there is the extreme. There's this thrill-seeking kind of... There's people and dogs and animals that are genetically wired to seek it because there is a very different satisfaction. Just like, you know, we watched a few days ago UFC fights. I mean, some people want to be punched in the face.
This is just what they enjoy. And it's not for everybody. And go and treat that person without aversives. He will find a way to get what they need. And typically... he will end up in some street fights and go to jail and so on, instead of having a much healthier outlet that satisfies that generic predisposition. And this is, again, the problem with the positive reinforcement ideology that...
one size fits all. It's like, no. Again, some people like to be punched in the face. Some people like to do ice skating. And some people just want to watch TV and eat potato chips all day long. And there is nothing you can do to change neither one of those. And, yeah, I'm pretty convinced and I have... I am working on a new presentation about this that should be very interesting.
But the competitions are one of the most cool things that we have as a dog training industry for so many reasons. Even how does anybody can, say that trainer is better than that trainer. What is it? Well, he's been paying taxes on his business for 30 years, so he must be a good trainer because he didn't go out of business. Is that a criteria?
Or he was working much harder cases than that other trainer. Well, how can we compare which case is harder?
That's true.
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Chapter 8: How can dog trainers effectively communicate across different training ideologies?
He might be little. he's a little killer. Like you're going to have to be on top of this dog. And I think she really got it by the end of the program, but he was a cool dog. He's one of those dogs that would have just totally taken home. But to anybody else, he was just a terror because he just wanted to go, go, go all the time. Beautiful little dog. I totally.
You know, that reminds me of something like about another ongoing conversation when when a pet owner has a dog and the dog has a problem and then somebody that has the same breed and it's like, oh no, my dog is good and it's good because it's my training approach and it's because I raised it right. And that happens so often when it's like, well, you don't need this kind of training.
You don't need this kind of tool. My dog doesn't need it. It's like, it's great that your dog doesn't need it, but dogs are so different. They can, even litter mates are, you know, one can be way more twitchy than another one. One can be way more pronounced, you know, predation instincts, and the other one can just walk around squirrels all day long and not care. And you...
You have to take into consideration their individual makeup, you know.
And when people say that, it's like, I don't know why you use those tools. I've never had to use them. And I'm like, do you like walking to cancer wards and say, why are you here? I've never had cancer. Right, right.
They are very much the same.
It's not about you. I've done this. I've had this. I've had dogs for 30 years. But not everything's about you. Like there are different people with different needs and different dogs. It's just, yeah, ignorance. I don't want to go back down that rabbit hole. I'm going to have to go in a minute because I've got to get ready for this workshop today.
that I'm gonna go to. Yeah, I'm gonna kind of check that one out too. Tell me about, just really quickly, are there any bands as far as dog breeds in Australia?
uh yeah we've got the american pit bull terrier is banned and has been banned since the 80s i think and what does that mean you cannot breed or you cannot own or or like i mean i think when the ban came in you just couldn't breed or bring any into the country i i think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find an american american pit bull terrier here but i've trained some dogs that i'm pretty sure there's some in them
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