Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This breaks from all sorts of different angles, and we followed it closely through the eminently sensible Phil Davis. Phil, welcome back.
Gerard's always a land post in my week, mate, so it's good to be here.
We have plotted Carlton for about 18 months now, and the next of the flashpoints has come with the end of the Michael Voss era. How have you taken it in?
No, always sad. I do think... I find coaches moving on one of the more sad parts of the game. Is it Mick Malthouse that said you only ever get one way out of a footy club and that's getting fired? And I don't ā Vossi resigned, sorry, but I think it was mutual on the way out. But I always get sad because ā
Chapter 2: What are Phil Davis's thoughts on the current state of Carlton?
It's hard to think of a job outside of the prime minister and maybe the treasurer on budget night that has more consistent scrutiny than an AFL coach and particularly certain ones, you know, West Coast, the Crows, Carlton, Richmond, Collingwood, Essendon. Like that's a tough card to be dealt.
But so it's always a bit sad and particularly Vossi had a little bit to do with him at the time and have an enormous admiration for him. It's just sad that it didn't work out.
Yeah.
There's lots of different ways to pull it there. So one of them, so round nine was the end point for Leon Cameron. Round nine ended up being the end point for Michael Voss. I've always thought there have been echoes in the previous to the current. Can you see any other similarities?
Well, I think so. They're always at times. I think both have been put under pressure from expectations. I think Vossi took them to a prelim in 2023, which was not that long ago. And I would argue that the list didn't develop with the modern game And maybe his game plan didn't evolve as fast as it needed to as well. I think Leon was similar.
I don't think our list was exactly constructed for the modern game in 2022 when he got moved on, but also he probably didn't move with the game plan as fast as he should. Both had had recent success and you just didn't move at the pace that was required and you move on. And I think if I was Carlton, you can take hope from what Kingsley has been able to do at the Giants.
But I think Carlton have got a lot of work to do. I think they've got a lot of things that we've touched on multiple times that they've got to get right. But at the end of the day, they're Carlton, Gerrard. They'll never want for people that are keen to join that football club.
I thought that was part of yesterday. Is Carlton the selling point or is Carlton the cautionary tale?
Depends what your inner belief is as a senior coach. I don't think it's a lay down. You walk in and you don't ask any questions and you ask for the job. I think if you're a good candidate, you would do a considerable amount of homework about the ecosystem that you're walking in and ask yourself, what are my strengths? What can I control? What am I willing not to control?
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Chapter 3: How does Phil Davis compare the coaching situations of Carlton and GWS?
I think they're going to get back to where they need to get to. So, so this is top down for you. Yeah, it's top down.
And I think if you don't make some changes, cause the thing is, and I'm sure, you know, they're not naive enough to know that people talk in the football industry and we hear lots and lots and lots of stories, more stories than between Essendon and Carlton, Jared, you're hearing more stories than any other two football clubs about how it's run and how things operate there and how different it seems to every other club.
That they would have to look at that, see if they can address those. Once again, controllables, uncontrollables, but let's really tidy up what we can control. We'll get the best coach. They're going to get a great coach, Jared. Someone's going to want to take that job, but it's like, we'll do all the other pieces for online. That's a really big job. It's a big governance question.
If I was Colin, I would be spending a lot of time on my governance and thinking about how I structure the football club and who are the key decision makers before I probably progress to anything more substantial.
How, how does Patrick Cripps absorb a day like yesterday when he's lived at four times now? Do you reckon?
I copped it twice, Gerald. I lost Neil Craig in 2011 and then obviously Leon Cameron. And it's hard. I remember being really upset, particularly when Leon left, because you've just done so much together. You've had so many intense conversations on all range of emotions. And You just buy in, Jared. That's the thing. That's what you do. That's what I love about football clubs.
You buy into a story. If you don't buy in, you leave. And I think Paddy Cripps, poor Paddy Cripps, has bought in so many times. When you weigh it all up, Jared, like the thing about the coaches and these key figures is, you know, once they go, you know, what's tying you there sometimes? And I think when they think about big decisions, Patrick Cripps will be a big decision, obviously.
And I hope he stays a Carlton player forever. But it'd be hard for Pat. He just keeps fronting up. And as I said to you before, I don't see them being a final team in the near future. Or like, sorry, I should say a serious final team in the near future. And they've got some decisions. And he's been a remarkable guy. I've got so much admiration for Pat.
I think he's a great leader, a great competitor, and a great guy. And I think, how long can he just keep fronting up for, Jared? I think he'd just be tired, Jared. He'll be very tired. He'll... He would just be a tired guy, Jared, and now he's just become the target for everyone when it's not really his fault.
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Chapter 4: What challenges does Carlton face moving forward?
I'm not sure we did. Yeah. We, we had a bit of a spike at the start. Um, And then what happens is everyone's in flux. You've got just a multitude of factors that are now extending to a long period of time. It's just everything from that short-term spike. I'm not sure who Carlton will play this weekend, Gerrard, but they're going to be hard to beat Carlton.
You'll get that spike like you always do, and you might get it for a couple more weeks because ā you know, you're throwing the game plan out. You know, that's what you do when a caretaker coach and you play with more freedom. You do all the things that the coach sort of said you couldn't do. And then that is great for four or five weeks, Jared.
And then the reality comes that once again, you're playing in a high performance sport with other teams are smart and they know what they're doing. That doesn't work. And then after five weeks, you've still got eight or nine to go, Jared. So it's, Just a long time. You've got the assistant coaches trying to work out, well, actually, maybe I am a coach. Should I be a coach?
Should I be applying for this? What's my methodology? What am I actually doing? And then you've got these players being like, well, who's making the decision on my career? Do I have to wait now until the senior coach gets announced? And then what are we doing here? And it just becomes, there's no like short-term sprint, which is like four or five weeks.
It's this long, protracted, I think, instability. But I guess, Gerard, the only other way to argue it is, If Voss knew he wasn't going to be there, was there any point running that any further? And I guess that's what they would have tossed up. I think this is a long time, Gerard. It's a very long time. And I worry about what Carlton looks like at round 17, 18 this year.
So does it make your players vulnerable to other clubs? Other clubs will be preying on them, won't they?
Yeah.
Yeah, I think every sophisticated list manager coach club will just be trying to pick off everyone. And I would be probably, I wouldn't start yet. I'd be targeting the buy. And from then on, I would just be going all in on being like, hey, come to stability, come to what you know. We like you, blah, blah, blah. And so I'm not sure when Carlton will announce the coach.
I think, as I said to you before, I think they've probably got a month or two of just getting their own stuff in order while they run the process, I think, slowly on the side. And then I think they should kick it up and hopefully ā you'd like to think by August. I'd be aiming for August to have it, so then it gives you a good month before the season's over.
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Chapter 5: How does Phil Davis view the impact of coaching changes on players?
Yeah. And I think that's what makes it fascinating, Jared. And I, you know, I always reflect on that. You think within Reason, there are three to four biggest challenges in the game in terms of like big jobs. You know, one is, one and two, like not in order, would be Gold Coast and Giants. Gold Coast, the Giants have got an enormous job. That's very challenging.
But Essendon and Carlton are two monster jobs. I think Richmond are going to be okay. I think they've got a path out and everything's looking okay. And obviously been a far less turbulent period and they've had sustained success during the late 2010s. But Carlton and Essendon are, I think, the two biggest challenges. That is like an enormous job on lots of reasons.
I think that's what it's exciting. Like if you said to me, Gerardinho, which jobs would you want? I'd put them in my top five and then you'd have to work out, would you rather that or would you rather just take over Geelong or something or Adelaide? You've got a few that would be good jobs to have and those two are the most interesting jobs. But there's a lot of work to be done.
And then the second question, Jared, is how involved will the AFL get on this one? Usually the AFL get involved when it's like the smaller clubs per se to make sure everything's like tucked and tied. This is a bigger beast. And it'll be interesting to see how and if they just maybe just lean in and make one or two comments. I'd say probably not. but you never know.
Maybe a better stocked and better performing and more confident AFL might have in the past, but I suspect their state means they're not dabbling terribly far outside their own corridors at the moment.
Yeah, and I think if you think about who's in there, Dylan, Harley and Swan would probably feel the most confident because once you get near coaching, your job is to sort of just make sure the process is run well. But at the same time, maybe you just landed in here and say, maybe don't take a risk on the coach this time. You know, I think that's about the extent of which they might say.
And maybe Carlton do need a young coach, who knows. But, you know, they might just land a bit of maybe a soft parameter on what they think would work.
So just give me that as a closing point. Carlton should get the best coach for them. And Graham Wright, so he's had two different guys. He chose Sam Mitchell at Hawthorne and he ran a brilliant process at Collingwood that landed Craig McRae. Do you think Carlton would chew up a certain type of coach? The two extremes are John Longmire is the culture builder.
Everything that Carlton is not, John has been and done over a long period of time at Sydney. And then at the other end is the well-credentialed, about-to-burst assistant coach, who might be low-profile in the way that Craig McRae, but he might be the gem. Do you have a leaning either way?
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Chapter 6: What strategies does Phil suggest for Carlton's rebuilding process?
And I think that's going to be important. You know, we've been very well served by our commissioners, but the ability to turn the seat over every now and again, obviously they'll have to stagger that, but what it does is it gives you fresh, fresh voices, fresh ideas and ability for people to come and leave.
And I think that's important to ensure that we keep getting the diverse skillset that we need. And I think also, you know, he's got some views around, you know, the value of, um,
Andrew Ireland and Matt DeBoer and people that have been in Clubland and out of Clubland and then you've got to mix that with the other skill sets that you need on a board from people that have been in public sector, people that have invested, people that have done work in the community, Indigenous. You really need a widespread and I think that's what we'll get.
What did you think of the idea of dropping the G from GWS, Phil?
Probably... Probably the letter that I wasn't expecting to lose, Gerard, just because everything's a G. And I guess we could just lean into the Giants, obviously. I must admit, I always just thought if it was going to go anywhere, it was just going to become the Giants, Gerard, and you would just become even broader than just Western Sydney.
I probably just need to hear a better reason why you would drop the G at this stage, I think. We're splitting hairs if we think that's going to be the difference and maybe what it does is maybe does it narrow the focus? Maybe. I'm not sure. But I don't think it really matters, Gerard. I think it's a non-issue. I think the bigger issue is do we have the right plan?
Do we have the right resources to execute it? And do we have the level of commitment required to do so? That's the real question. The G or the W or whatever it is, Gerard, doesn't matter as much.
Yeah, so... When it all started and we were taken out on buses and shown where the heart of the Giants was going to be, it's not really that though, is it? Does it have a geographic base? Does it need a geographic base?
No, I don't think it does, Joe. I think the key is we're in the community and that's the bit that we've got to keep fronting up. And I think that's one bit that sometimes the Victorians don't quite see is on a Tuesday night you might finish training at, call it, 3.30 and then you're driving an hour and a half west to go to a Foothills or a Campbelltown or even further west
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