5DCA Oral Argument - 2025/11/04 - Nov 04, 2025
argument5DCA Oral Argument - 2025/11/04
California Fifth District Court of Appeal
6h 11m
8 chapters
transcribed 2 days ago
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What is the case that the court is hearing in this oral argument?
Oh
Oh
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh Yeah.
Oh
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
In for the state of California to the Pellet District now in session. Good morning. Please be seated.
Nice to see everyone this morning. And let's call the first matter of Thornbury versus County of Stanislaus. Please state your appearances.
Dan Farrar for the appellant, uh County of Stanislaus.
And Robert Averissa Goodman for respondent.
Thank you very much. Um Mr. Goodman, you've requested fifteen minutes, I believe. And um Mr. Farr, you've requested ten. Did you wish to reserve some portion of that time?
Well, I'm probably only gonna use thirty seconds of it anyway, so
Okay, well we'll we'll leave it to you we'll leave it to you to kind of apportion that out and uh that will work out well. I would just note for the record that we are very familiar with the facts of this case and would just ask that you keep that in mind uh during your argument. And with that said, please proceed.
Okay, uh just briefly, I because I reviewed, went over the briefs, I don't have a whole lot to add, but I am looking at uh the Dryer's Grand Ice Cream case and the uh the quote from the court uh at page 838 of that uh decision, that opinion, where the court said the issue is one of fact. Whether on the evidence presented, the board could conclude that the plaintiff failed to satisfy the Of proving that under utilization adjustment was appropriate in this case. And I think that you could plug in the solar canopy issue directly into that quote, it would have the same force and effect. Whether on the evidence presented, the board could conclude that the claimant failed to satisfy his burden, of proving that these structures were actually a component of.
Yeah. of the uh solar uh canopy and it failed to claim it failed to meet that burden with the board as an issue of fact, not an issue of law.
Okay, now Council, you would agree I I would assume that evaluation methodology is not limited just to determining the property's value. And it also includes legal questions regarding the property, which property to value.
Yes, I can see that.
Okay. And so at that point, how do you uh square the de novo review analysis that you have propounded?
The I I am repounding that it's a substantial evidence test that the trial court should have deferred to the assessment appeals board. So I don't think I understand the question.
But if it also if it is factual and legal. How does that square?
I don't know because I could not find a case that I thought was particularly clear on that point. I know that there is some crossover, but I think in this particular case, uh it is such a fact specific finding as to whether or not a particular structure is uh part of a solar canopy that it is it's more factual than it is. legal. I don't know how a it would be a legal decision.
But but you did concede that it does have a legal component of it, which is what property to value.
Well I suppose that that could be true, but that could also apply across the board to any property. uh as to whether or not is it always a legal question or legal issue as to what should be assessed? I think the premise is that all property unless exempt or excluded is uh taxable and then I think that it is just a question of fact as to whether or not a particular component, especially in the the facts of this case, as to whether or not it is uh falls within the the definition of the exclusion.
How does your analysis square with the Amdahl case?
Yeah.
Anything further? Thank you very much, Council.
Excuse me.
Not your fault.
May it please the court. I'm gonna go a little bit off script and uh answer your questions question, Justice Hill. Um how does the court approach uh mixed questions of fact and law in tax refund actions? And the case law has established three categories of cases. First, there's valuation and non-valuation cases, and within the category. Category of valuation cases. There's cases in which the taxpayer challenges a application of a correct methodology, and there's questions where the taxpayer challenges the validity of the methodology itself.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the case that the court is hearing in this oral argument?
0:54–42:21
2
How do the parties frame the issue of the Federal Arbitration Act versus the California Arbitration Act?
42:21–1:05:13
3
What arguments are made about the transportation‑worker exemption under the FAA?
1:05:13–1:22:46
4
How does the Meeker declaration affect the court’s analysis of the worker’s duties?
1:22:46–3:07:45
5
What precedents do the counsel cite to support their position on interstate‑commerce nexus?
3:07:45–5:01:46
6
How do the parties address the question of whether the arbitration agreement is enforceable under the FAA?
5:01:46–5:28:11
7
What procedural issues (burden of proof, evidentiary standards) are highlighted by the judges?
5:28:11–5:44:48
8
What are the main takeaways and next steps after the oral argument concludes?
5:44:48–6:11:10