Commil USA, LLC v. Cisco Systems, Inc. (13-896)
argument 13-896Commil USA, LLC v. Cisco Systems, Inc.
Supreme Court of the United States
1h 0m
5 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 4 days ago
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What is the central legal issue in Commil USA v. Cisco Systems regarding patent validity and induced infringement?
We'll hear argument first this morning in case 13-896, communal USA versus Cisco Systems. Mr. Woodman.
Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court. This case concerns whether an infringer who bypasses myriad means of adjudicating patent validity and who then actively induces infringement can escape responsibility simply by claiming that they believe the patent was invalid.
Well, not claiming, but by proving it.
Well, they would have to prove that, Your Honor, but we submit that the presumption of validity, especially because of that, it would be wrong to allow the infringer to escape liability in those instances. If there's a mistake, it should be borne by the infringer who made the mistake.
You mentioned the presumption of validity. What percentage of patents that are challenged are found to be valid?
Well, Your Honor, from the briefing, it appears a high number. Forty percent was an estimate. I don't know how —
Well, 40 percent of the patents are found to be valid? Invalid. Invalid. Invalid. So only 60 percent are upheld. That's not much of a presumption of validity.
Mr. Chief Justice, I would submit that it would be for Congress to change the presumption of validity if it's out of line. The presumption has been part of patent law for several hundred years, even before the codification in 1952. And it's more than just a procedural mechanism. It's a message that patents are presumed valid. They should be respected not just by judges and juries, but by the public who are told that until proven otherwise, patents are presumed valid, and someone who wishes to gamble on their belief that it's invalid should bear the consequences if they're wrong.
This question would come up only if the patent had been held valid, right? And the defense is, although the patent is valid, we had a good-faith belief that it was invalid.
That's right, Justice Ginsburg. It would basically give the accused infringer a second bite at the apple because they would have to have the patent found valid. And then if that went against them, then they would want a second chance to say, even though they were mistaken, they believed that it was invalid. And we think that giving them that second bite at the apple will eviscerate the effectiveness of Section 271B, which is vital to protect the interest of patent owners. And the
— The Court below believed that there was no good faith basis to distinguish a good faith belief in — lack of infringement from a good faith belief in validity. How do you address that difference?
Justice Sotomayor.
Or is there one, and why?
There is a substantial difference, Your Honor, because we can see that validity and infringement are different. I'd like to start with the statutory basis that makes that clear. 271B says that whoever shall actively induce infringement shall be liable as an infringer. It speaks not at all to validity. Validity is in a completely separate section of the Patent Act.
But it's a type of aiding and abetting liability, and both in tort law and in criminal law. At the common law, it was clear that you're not liable as an aider and abetter unless you have a wrongful intent. If indeed you're — and you acknowledge that part of this depends upon — upon wrongful intent, don't you? You say that it can't hinge upon the belief that the patent is invalid, but do you not acknowledge that you have to believe that you are inducing infringement of the invalid patent? Where do you get that requirement from?
Well, indeed, Justice Scalia, those are two separate, and I acknowledge that. as the Court said in the Global Tech matter, that some intent is required, and that was found from the words actively induced in Section 271B. Well,
why just some intent? What good does it do to say, well, you know, you're really not a bad actor, but you're, you know, you're half a bad actor. That's enough. It seems to me that if you don't know that you're infringing or that you're encouraging somebody to infringe, is no worse than your not knowing that the patent is valid.
Well, under the Court's Arrow 2 case that the Court described in global text as a fixture of patent law,
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the central legal issue in Commil USA v. Cisco Systems regarding patent validity and induced infringement?
0:00–7:19
2
How does the presumption of patent validity affect a defendant’s liability for inducing infringement?
7:19–15:31
3
Why do the parties argue that a good‑faith belief in a patent’s invalidity should not excuse inducement liability?
15:31–21:16
4
What statutory provisions (271B, 271C, 271E) and common‑law principles govern aiding‑and‑abetting in patent cases?
21:16–27:02
5
How do the Court’s decisions in Global Tech and Arrow II shape the knowledge‑requirement for liability?
27:02–35:57
6
What policy reasons support keeping liability for inducing infringement separate from patent invalidity defenses?
35:57–45:06
7
How do modern mechanisms like IPR, declaratory judgments, and the America Invents Act impact the risk calculus for companies like Cisco?
45:06–53:12
8
What is the petitioners’ ultimate request to the Supreme Court—reversal and remand, and why?
53:12–1:00:23