Garland, Att'y Gen. v. Cargill (22-976)

argument 22-976

Garland, Att'y Gen. v. Cargill

Supreme Court of the United States 1h 30m 8 speakers 8 chapters transcribed 8 days ago official recording ↗

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What is the core argument presented at the start of the oral argument?

John G. Roberts 0:00

We will hear argument first this morning in case 22976,

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 0:04

Garland v. Cargill. Mr. Fletcher? Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court. To fire a rifle fitted with a bump stock, the shooter simply places his trigger finger on the built-in finger ledge and uses his other hand to press the front of the rifle forward. As long as the shooter maintains that steady forward pressure, the rifle will fire continuously until it runs out of bullets. And it will empty a hundred round magazine like the ones used in the Las Vegas shooting in about 10 seconds. Those weapons do exactly what Congress meant to prohibit when it enacted the prohibition on machine guns. And those weapons are machine guns because they satisfy both disputed parts of the statutory definition.

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 0:41

First, a rifle with a bump stock fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger. In common usage today, as in 1934, a function of the trigger happens when some act by the shooter, usually a pull, starts a firing sequence. With a semi-automatic rifle, it fires one shot for each function of the trigger because the shooter has to manually pull and release the trigger for every shot. But a bump stock eliminates those manual movements and allows the shooter to fire many shots with one act, a forward push. Now, Respondent says that a separate function of the trigger happens every time the trigger on a traditional rifle moves backwards and releases the hammer, even if it moves without any further manipulation by the shooter.

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 1:20

But that is inconsistent with contemporaneous usage. does not account for guns with other kinds of triggers, and would make it trivially easy to evade the ban on machine guns just by automating the back-and-forth movement of the trigger after the shooter's initial pull. Second, a rifle with a bump stock fires more than one shot automatically, that is, through a self-regulating mechanism. Once the shooter presses forward to fire the first shot, the bump stock uses the gun's recoil energy to create a continuous back-and-forth cycle that fires hundreds of shots per minute. A respondent says that that cycle is not automatic because the shooter has to keep up the forward pressure to keep the cycle going.

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 1:57

But many traditional machine guns likewise require the shooter to maintain backward pressure on the trigger to maintain continuous fire. Either way, a single motion both initiates and maintains a multi-shot sequence, and either way, the weapon is a machine gun. I welcome the Court's questions.

Clarence Thomas 2:12

Mr. Fletcher, how does a machine gun — what would I have to do to fire a machine gun?

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 2:18

It depends on the machine gun. Some, it's a push of a button. Some, it's a pull of a trigger. The statutory definition is, does it shoot more than one shot automatically by a single function of the trigger?

Clarence Thomas 2:30

But I don't have to do anything else. I don't have to put pressure on it or anything else.

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 2:37

Depends on the gun, again. So if you imagine, I think what your question is getting at is if you take a traditional M16 rifle, we often think of when we think of a machine gun, you're right. To fire more than one shot, you pull the trigger and you have to hold it back. And as long as you maintain that backward pressure on the trigger, it keeps shooting.

Clarence Thomas 2:52

With a bump stock, what would I do different?

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 2:55

You would do different, both the initial motion and the motion that continues. It's the same thing in the sense that one motion automates back and forth movement and results in multiple shots. So what

Clarence Thomas 3:04

is happening with a trigger-initiated firing of a machine gun? What do I have to do other than depress the trigger?

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 3:15

With a traditional machine gun, again, take an M16, and again, we think they're all machine guns, but I understand the question to be take an M16, you pull the trigger back, and you hold it, and it keeps shooting. With a bump stock, you push forward, and that both initiates and continues the firing.

Clarence Thomas 3:27

And what is happening with the trigger when you have the recoil?

R. Stanton 'Stan' Fletcher 3:31

That's exactly right. So I think this gets to Respondent's primary argument on function of a trigger, which is that the difference with a bump stock is that it fires multiple shots automatically by automating the movement of the trigger.