Nichols v. United States (15-5238)

argument 15-5238

Nichols v. United States

Supreme Court of the United States 50 min 5 speakers 8 chapters transcribed 6 days ago official recording ↗
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What is the central legal issue presented in Nichols v. United States?

John G. Roberts 0:00
We'll hear an argument first this morning in Case 15-5238, Nichols v. United States. Mr. Hansmeier.
Joseph Hansmeier 0:08
MR. Mr. Chief Justice, may it please the Court. Until three weeks ago, a sex offender who moved to a foreign country was not subject to any Federal registration requirement in the United States unless and until he returned to the United States. Below, the Tenth Circuit nonetheless held that it is a Federal crime for a sex offender who moves to a foreign country to fail to report that move. The Tenth Circuit was wrong for three overarching reasons. First, Sorna's text does not include a requirement to unregister. Second, Sorna's statutory history reveals that if Congress wanted to include a requirement to unregister, it would have done so, just as it did before Sorna's enactment. Finally, a requirement to unregister is unnecessary because all 56 jurisdictions require sex offenders
Joseph Hansmeier 1:00
to unregister. Failure to do so is a violation of the jurisdiction's law and not a Federal law. JUSTICE
Elena Kagan 1:06
GINSBERG. That would be true of Kansas law in this case. It would have violated the Kansas law. Is that true?
Joseph Hansmeier 1:12
MR. He had a requirement to tell Kansas of his departure, correct.
Elena Kagan 1:17
JUSTICE GINSBERG. How does it work normally? Say a person on dishonor leaves Kansas and goes to Illinois. He registers in Illinois. Is there any obligation, one, for him to register or deregister in Kansas? And does Illinois have an obligation to notify Kansas?
Joseph Hansmeier 1:45
Correct. So what happens in practice is that SORNA sets minimum federal standards, and those minimum federal standards are supplemented by the States with additional more stringent requirements. One of those more stringent requirements is the obligation to unregister. And, yes, Kansas has that obligation. So in your hypothetical, Justice Ginsburg, that individual has to unregister in Kansas under State law. And when he gets to Illinois, that's the Federal requirement to tell Illinois to register, to update the registration in Illinois, because that's the jurisdiction where he resides. under 16921B3 will tell — will tell Kansas of the — of the move.
Elena Kagan 2:25
JUSTICE KAGAN. Kansas, in addition to the other venues — MR. If there are any threats. JUSTICE KAGAN. — so it would be both federal and a State requirement. But in one case, it's on the sauna person and the other — it's the other State.
Joseph Hansmeier 2:43
MR. I think that's correct, yes.
John G. Roberts 2:45
JUSTICE KAGAN. Under you — MR. What sense does it make if you have Federal law that says we're going to add these sanctions when you violate the state law, and in the one case, if you don't register, they're triggered. The state law says, well, you've got to unregister, too. But if you unregister, if you don't unregister, that's not included under the federal law. Why would Congress draft a law like that?
Joseph Hansmeier 3:10
MR. Well, I think they would have done that because — and if you look at the legislative history, I think this is somewhat clear what Congress was concerned about were missing sex offenders, not at initial registration, but when the sex offender crossed state lines. So by requiring registration when you get to the jurisdiction, that was the aim, because that's when offenders were going missing. Now, the departure jurisdiction would be a relationship between — very much a relationship between the State and its citizens. And that's played out if you think of a state sex offender who could live in Kansas. And if he were to have a federal requirement to unregister in Kansas, that's actually not enforceable under SORNA because the travel has to come after or before he can't register.
Joseph Hansmeier 4:06
So if Mr. Nichols were a state sex offender and he's only committed an offense when he leaves Kansas, and that's a problem, if we're saying that there's a Federal requirement to unregister in the departure jurisdiction. Now, that may work for Federal offenders, but I think the idea is that there are Federalism concerns underlying Sorna, and those Federalism concerns come into play when an individual crosses State lines. And that's the minimum requirement in Sorna. JUSTICE BREYER- Well, but

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