Pham v. Guzman Chavez (19-897)
argument 19-897Pham v. Guzman Chavez
Supreme Court of the United States
1h 5m
8 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 5 days ago
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Transcript
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Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Why does counsel argue that the aliens are detained under Section 1231 instead of Section 1226?
We will hear argument this morning in case 19-897, Baum v. Guzman-Chavez. Mr. Suri?
Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court, respondents are detained under Section 1231, not under Section 1226. In the first place, the text of Section 1231 refers repeatedly to an order of removal or to the aliens who have been ordered removed That is clear from the caption, from the operative provisions, and from the definition of the removal period. There is no dispute here that these aliens have been ordered removed. Indeed, that is the definition of reinstating a removal order. In the second place, Section 1226 supports that conclusion. The best way to see that is to lay Section 1226 alongside the reinstatement clause. Section 1226 says that it applies pending a decision on whether the alien is to be removed.
And the reinstatement clause says that these aliens shall be removed. Putting those two provisions together, it's clear that in the eyes of the law, a decision that has to be made, that has to be pending for Section 1226 to apply, has been made in this case. And if the court finds all of that unconvincing, it should turn to the structure of the statute. Congress put the provisions governing reinstatement, withholding, and the selection of the country of removal all in Section 1231, not in Section 1226. That's a structural indication that it's Section 1231 that applies. I welcome the Court's questions.
Mr. Suri, if an alien is in withholding-only proceedings and there's no country other than the one as to which he claims statutory withholding or cat relief, can you remove him?
No, we cannot, Your Honor.
Well, then so your emphasis that the distinction is between whether and where really doesn't hold up across the board, does it?
I appreciate, Your Honor, that the distinction between whether and where can seem artificial in a context where there's only one option, and that option potentially has been ruled out. Nevertheless, that is the distinction the statute requires us to draw, and we can see that in a few ways. First of all, in Section 1231A7, Congress talks about a situation where the alien has been ordered removed, But removal to any country is impracticable or impossible because all of those countries have refused permission. Even in that context, it's 1231 that applies. That suggests that Congress did view whether and where as distinct. Second, that's the distinction that underlies the difference between withholding of removal on the one hand and asylum on the other hand.
The court hasn't said in its precedence about withholding and asylum that the two are functionally the same simply because as a practical matter, whether and where can collapse into a single inquiry. Well, when you
say it can collapse, that seems to me to suggest that the distinction you draw is not a valid one. You call it artificial, but it seems to me that it might be wrong, at least in the category of cases where there's no third country available. And I gather that's in the vast majority, right?
Yeah.
That is correct, Your Honor. But one last point I'd make to defend the distinction is that the very availability of withholding of removal in the first place depends on the courts accepting that distinction. Recall that the reinstatement clause says that the removal order can't be reopened, can't be reviewed under any circumstances. The only way to square that with withholding is to say that withholding doesn't affect the removal order itself, it just affects the question where. Well, but
isn't it, why isn't it, since it depends upon, whether you can actually remove the alien depends upon the particular circumstances of each case, whether there's a third country available. Why isn't that the touchstone that should be applied for whether it's a person's in 1226 or 1231, the particular circumstances?
Yeah.
Because in Section 1231, the words are ordered removed. It doesn't refer to the practicalities of removal. And even in 1226, although the Court of Appeals read whether the alien is to be removed to refer to that practical question, respondents themselves have abandoned that argument.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
Why does counsel argue that the aliens are detained under Section 1231 instead of Section 1226?
0:00–8:37
2
How does the discussion explain the distinction between “whether” and “where” removal can occur?
8:37–17:22
3
What is the significance of the reinstatement clause and its impact on withholding‑only proceedings?
17:22–26:13
4
How do the Justices question the availability of supervised release after the 90‑day removal period?
26:13–34:07
5
What arguments are presented about administrative finality versus executable removal orders?
34:07–41:22
6
How does counsel address the structural placement of reinstatement and withholding provisions in Section 1231?
41:22–49:37
7
What tiebreakers does counsel propose for choosing between the interpretations of Sections 1226 and 1231?
49:37–57:57
8
What key points are made in the final rebuttal about statutory text, due‑process concerns, and the removal period?
57:57–1:05:25