Turner v. Rogers (10-10)
argument 10-10Turner v. Rogers
Supreme Court of the United States
1h 9m
7 speakers
8 chapters
transcribed 4 days ago
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Transcript
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What due‑process right does the Court say is required before incarcerating a civil contemnor?
We'll hear argument first this morning in case ten ten, uh Turner versus Rogers. Mr. Waxman.
Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the court. Due process requires the assistance of counsel before an alleged civil contemnor can be incarcerated. That categorical rule flows from the imposition by a court in a formal adversary proceeding of what this court has termed, quote, the awesome prospect of incarceration.
It's a formal adversary proceeding uh in a very limited sense and not in the sense that caused us to require counsel to be provided in criminal proceedings where the other side is armed with uh legal knowledge that the poor defendant does not have. Uh many of these uh proceedings do not involve counsel on the other side, do they?
Well Justice Scalia The answer is yes and no. I don't think that you can call this non adversarial because the s because South Carolina as an advertisement
council. Is it not true that many, perhaps most of these proceedings, do not have counsel on the other side? It is the wife who is trying to get uh a payment of uh uh of the uh of the uh defaulted alimony. And does not have counsel to do.
I think it is the contrary is true. According to the government statistics, seventy percent of non custodial parents either have no income or have income less than ten thousand dollars, and therefore in a state in every state that accepts TANF funds, which is every state, they are represented by the state agency. And South Carolina in this case has made a rule that in state cases, and that also includes non welfare cases where the n custodial parent has chosen to be represented by the State, the State entirely carries its prosecutorial burden by filing a rule to show cause and an affidavit showing the arreages, and that places the burden, which South Carolina says is a heavy burden on the defendant
to prove inability to comply as a condition of maintaining his liberty.
Well if we agree with you, isn't this going to create an imbalance? Now in this case, Ms. Rogers was not represented by counsel at this proceeding, was she?
Ms. Rogers, in in most of the proceedings, and it it does vary from one to the other, In all let's put it this way, in all of the proceedings, the charges and the State's prima facie case of willful contempt was established by a State employee. Yes,
the State employee is sends out the the uh World of Show cause and uh proof that uh evidence that the the non custodial parent is in arrears on the child payment. So let's See what would happen if counsel is then appointed. In one of these cases where both the custodial parent and the non-custodial parent are indigent and perhaps not very well educated, counsel is appointed for the non-custodial parent. And counsel comes in and says, This is the income of my client, and uh he's hurt, uh he was hurt on the job. all his his income is social security disability benefits and he doesn't have enough money to pay child support. Now the custodial p the not the custodial parent who has no attorney, says, He's not really hurt.
Um I see him or I see him walking around. He's going hunting, he's shooting baskets, uh he's driving around in a new car. Uh it may not be the title may not be in his name. He's uh he's out on the street corner, he's buying drugs, he's drinking alcohol. But I don't have a lawyer and I can't prove any of this. So you've created a great imbalance there, haven't you?
Not at all, Justice Alito. First of all, in all in the in the in the majority of cases, the Department of Social Services is in fact the real party in interest and the moving party. And in any private case, for a nominal fee, the custodial mother can have the Department of Social Services act in that role as federal law requires the State to do. Why don't you argue for Why don't you argue for
a rule uh that uh that the State must provide counsel for the uh defendant in these cases where it has provided counsel or there is paid counsel on the other side? Wouldn't that be fair?
Would that would certainly be more than fair. And the number of instances let's let's be clear about this.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What due‑process right does the Court say is required before incarcerating a civil contemnor?
0:00–9:14
2
How does the government argue that a categorical right to appointed counsel is unnecessary in civil contempt cases?
9:14–19:39
3
What is the distinction between direct and indirect contempt and why does it matter for the right to counsel?
19:39–29:49
4
How do the parties define the “ability‑to‑pay” defense and what legal questions does it raise?
29:49–38:06
5
What procedural safeguards (forms, hearings, findings) are proposed to satisfy due process without appointing counsel?
38:06–47:04
6
How do state practices (e.g., South Carolina, New Jersey, Utah) differ on providing counsel in civil contempt enforcement?
47:04–53:15
7
What are the cost‑benefit arguments for and against a statewide rule requiring appointed counsel?
53:15–1:00:59
8
What does the Court ultimately decide about jurisdiction and the need for a categorical right to counsel?
1:00:59–1:09:33