Adam Tooze

It was people in a family, people in an organization, in a company saying dad or the boss or whomever.

isn't just getting angry sometimes.

No, there's something going on here.

They become dangerous.

Yeah.

And we have to prepare to be endangered.

You mentioned the Biden interlude.

You're a historian, you've covered Biden, you were talking to a lot of people in the

How now do you regard what the Biden administration meant in the sweep of the history of this era?

The promise was we could go back.

America can be what you thought we were.

But the Biden administration had a theory of American power.

It's an older theory.

It's a theory of America as the leader of this international order that is rules-based.

And to Mark Carney's point, sometimes America slips out of those rules.

But fundamentally, America's strength...

comes out of a structure of alliances that is both dependent upon our power and dependent upon our restraint.

How would you describe what the Trump administration's vision of American power is?

So, but inside the Trump administration's worldview, if America's been the loser in globalization, if our infrastructure sucks, our airports aren't up to scratch, our palaces are tacky, where does power come from?

If we were powerful, what would the pillars of that power be?