Adam Tooze

So I think what history does and what policy does is set the terms under which capital and labor, amongst other players, transact within the frame, if you like, that technology provides. And New Deal was very favorable to organized labor, which is why I think middle class America looks back to it with nostalgia. That was the Treaty of Detroit. And neoliberalism broke that.

So I think what history does and what policy does is set the terms under which capital and labor, amongst other players, transact within the frame, if you like, that technology provides. And New Deal was very favorable to organized labor, which is why I think middle class America looks back to it with nostalgia. That was the Treaty of Detroit. And neoliberalism broke that.

And it's in a sense now as though they want the promise of the middle class lifestyle of the 50s without the power relations, which would be powerful, organized labor that actually made that possible. Wow. Okay. And all of this suggesting somehow and feeding off the idea that America's got to make things. And if it doesn't make things, it's somehow just floating free and without substance.

And it's in a sense now as though they want the promise of the middle class lifestyle of the 50s without the power relations, which would be powerful, organized labor that actually made that possible. Wow. Okay. And all of this suggesting somehow and feeding off the idea that America's got to make things. And if it doesn't make things, it's somehow just floating free and without substance.

I think that's right. And I don't disagree with Zorab in his analysis of the 18th and 19th century. My question is really about the relevance of that analysis to the 21st century and the world that we're currently in.

I think that's right. And I don't disagree with Zorab in his analysis of the 18th and 19th century. My question is really about the relevance of that analysis to the 21st century and the world that we're currently in.

And the question really is, sure, we know from many cases, not just the American one, that you can engineer on the upswing, if you like, an increase in the share of your manufacturing industrial sector. Most recently, the Chinese have done it to truly spectacular effect. The question is whether a mature and rich society like the American one can or even should want to do that.

And the question really is, sure, we know from many cases, not just the American one, that you can engineer on the upswing, if you like, an increase in the share of your manufacturing industrial sector. Most recently, the Chinese have done it to truly spectacular effect. The question is whether a mature and rich society like the American one can or even should want to do that.

Now, this doesn't mean that America can't cherry pick individual sectors and say, we'd really like to have more competence in chips. Fine. Absolutely. You can do that. You can go after that.

Now, this doesn't mean that America can't cherry pick individual sectors and say, we'd really like to have more competence in chips. Fine. Absolutely. You can do that. You can go after that.

But that shouldn't be confused with a vision for society as a whole or the economy as a whole, let alone a kind of fix for the situation of the American middle class, which is how this is so often badged and sold in American politics today. There's a national security case for diversifying the source of memory chips and processors and so on.

But that shouldn't be confused with a vision for society as a whole or the economy as a whole, let alone a kind of fix for the situation of the American middle class, which is how this is so often badged and sold in American politics today. There's a national security case for diversifying the source of memory chips and processors and so on.

But there isn't, to my mind, a realistic social vision, which is why I raised the Mar-a-Lago and facelift thing, because it's not real, right? How dare you, sir?

But there isn't, to my mind, a realistic social vision, which is why I raised the Mar-a-Lago and facelift thing, because it's not real, right? How dare you, sir?

Well, you either go down that or you go down the Tonka Toy kind of hardhat vision of the economy, which Joe Biden was addicted to. I mean, he just loved the picture of himself in a manufacturing plant, however rundown, however 1980s, he wanted to be there. And they are both kind of visions, right? Of an American, well, they're a past projected into the future.

Well, you either go down that or you go down the Tonka Toy kind of hardhat vision of the economy, which Joe Biden was addicted to. I mean, he just loved the picture of himself in a manufacturing plant, however rundown, however 1980s, he wanted to be there. And they are both kind of visions, right? Of an American, well, they're a past projected into the future.

And I don't think they're helpful, right? Because I think they're misleading as to what would actually help the American working class, which is healthcare, childcare. You know, those are the things where you could actually affect tens of millions of people.

And I don't think they're helpful, right? Because I think they're misleading as to what would actually help the American working class, which is healthcare, childcare. You know, those are the things where you could actually affect tens of millions of people.

Just put some numbers in the picture here. There are 160 million people working as employed people in the United States, 170 million people in the workforce as a whole, so there's 10 million self-employed. There are 12 million people working in manufacturing, tightly defined. If you add 8 million in construction, that gets you to 20 million for industry.

Just put some numbers in the picture here. There are 160 million people working as employed people in the United States, 170 million people in the workforce as a whole, so there's 10 million self-employed. There are 12 million people working in manufacturing, tightly defined. If you add 8 million in construction, that gets you to 20 million for industry.