Adam Tooze

But Tuise has also been on a personal quest, I've been watching and reading long, to try to understand the role of China in all this.

And I really think you cannot understand what has been happening in American politics over the past 10 or 15 years without getting a better, clearer sense of the pressure China's rise is exerting on both the reality of our country, but also the minds of policymakers and leaders.

So I want to talk to Tuz about what he saw at Davos and how he's making sense of this moment.

As always, my email, ezraklineshow at nytimes.com.

Adam Tuz, welcome back to the show.

Pleasure to be here.

So watching Davos last week felt to me like a moment in which the world was collectively recognizing that some old order of America, some old conception of what America was, was over.

And something new was beginning.

You were at Davos.

To what degree did it feel like that to you?

This to me is why what I saw happening there was it seemed very substantive.

I mean, Davos was happening in the context of the Trump administration threatening possible military action, definitely tariffs over Greenland.

And to me, it was in part Mark Carney's speech where another world leader stood up and said,

And rather than trying to placate Trump, rather than trying to soften the edges of it, it's a negotiating posture.

We're all one alliance.

Just stood up and said, the old world is over.

There has been a rupture.

What, in your view, was he saying had ruptured?

You called it culture.

It struck me what was being described was almost characterological.