Adam Tooze

Communist authoritarian industrial juggernaut is rightly or wrongly the way America often sees China.

We've taken our jobs.

How now does China see America?

Why do you think that is?

I would not have imagined the tariff on India would be higher than the tariff on China.

Yeah, it's wild to watch.

You know, one of the things I began by asking you was the degree to which Davos this year... It's not that...

something that happened at Davos ended the old order.

It's more that it was a moment, I think, when Trump's performance, Carney's performance, it was a moment of recognition of a thing that had happened.

Do you feel that what is coming has shape?

There's another order visible?

Or are we just in a possibly quite dangerous interrenium where nothing is quite structured or stable?

Well, I think the reason people would think it is that there is a desire among many different players simultaneously in a globalized world to have rules that they roughly understand how to play by.

Lots of people have their profits bound up in that.

Lots of people have their political stability bound up in that.

And so you see it with Mark Carney.

In a way, you see it with China, which has wanted things to be fairly predictable, that there is a desire for predictability.

What makes Trump and in some ways Putin, but I would say specifically Trump, quite unique as a world leader of a major power is he has no desire for predictability.

But most of the global economy, and you talk about the Chinese officials who speak Davos better than even the Davos officials now do, they have a desire, as many others do, as Mark Carney going back to his days as a central banker does, to say, well, we got to figure out some way of making the transactions make sense.

Given your sense of awe at what China is doing industrially, the speed with which they're moving, the creation of the electricity they're building,