Alastair Campbell

What it speaks to is this sense of, you know, we're now, because of the challenge to Keir Starmer's leadership, because of sort of everybody hanging around waiting for this by-election, it's almost like people say, well, we can't get stuff done.

Well, I don't know that that's the nature of the conversation.

The other bit, you've given the two options.

The third option is that you have what I would define as a very kind of human conversation.

and you win them around on a different basis.

Now until, you know, doubtless we will hear more from John Healy and we will possibly hear more from Keir Starmer, but we probably won't get the true ins and outs.

But I have been in those situations where you can, the fact that this literally came out of the blue for most of us, for most people inside the government and for most people outside the government,

I think actually speaks to John Healy's credit in that I don't think he was doing what a lot of ministers do, which is to sort of, you know, do the bullying and the blackmailing and the intimidation through the media.

He didn't seem to me to do any of that.

So this has presumably been going on for a while.

But I wonder if it speaks to a deeper frustration and that that is what has provoked it at this time.

But look, in the end, I suspect that he, if Keir Starmer thought that

He's ended up believing the Treasury.

He's ended up believing that this is the only way that they can affordably do what John Healy is trying to do with regard to the defense investment plan.

But it's a very, very severe blow, this.

I mean, it's like...

you know, where Streeting resigns, well, he's the health secretary and he gets replaced and he's a very effective communicator and all that.

But I think when we are in this position, you know, that conference that you and I were at in Finland last week, you know, how often do we talk about Russia and the threat?

Keir Starmer made a speech recently where he talked about, you know, we're looking at a possibility by 2030 that Russia might launch an attack upon a NATO country.

So we do have to crank up.