Alastair Campbell

And

And I think they were doing pretty well on that until the Iran thing.

That has set them back.

But this politically today, West Streeting, clearly it's damaging if you lose a health secretary.

But when the country is in the state that it's in, when the public isn't yet, I don't think, fully educated about the full nature of the threats that we're facing...

I think when your defense secretary resigns and when it's somebody who is actually seen as so loyal and seen as so reliable, that is pretty devastating.

But I don't think he thinks he is going anytime soon.

And he's made that clear.

I think the other thing that I was hearing... Sorry, Alistair, explain that.

Yes, I don't have any doubt that he thinks that.

And the reason I think he thinks that is partly because of this thing that I've been saying to you, that there is this feeling amongst pretty large sections of the public, is the Labour government going to go exactly down the same track as the Tory government and just keep changing their leaders when times get a bit tough?

Secondly, I think he is probably persuading himself that, and this is the bit that I think a lot of his colleagues doubt, that he can do better, be better, operate better.

And I think that he's not convinced that Andy Burnham

So let's say Andy Burnham loses, he goes back to being mayor of Manchester.

That doesn't necessarily strengthen Keir Starmer's authority, which has been weakened by the fact of Andy Burnham trying to get rid of him.

So let's say that then West Streeting becomes the name to go to for somebody who might challenge, or one of the others that we've talked about before, Angela Rayner, whoever.

So I think he thinks he can beat any of them.

Now, you may think that's crazy.

Um, but if you are, if you have, we're back to the, we're back to the Tom Baldwin thesis that he's always being underestimated.

It's almost like he's, he, he wants to have his back against the wall and that's when he comes out fighting.