Alastair Campbell

That's when he thinks he can win.

Otherwise you would just throw your hands up and go.

So I, I, I think he does think that.

And I also think that, um, if, and when it comes to it, you see, um,

Who is it today?

Penny Mordaunt.

Penny Mordaunt put out a statement saying, well done, John Healy.

At last, somebody putting country first, party second.

And if you remember, that was one of the big messages from Keir Starmer in the run-up to the election.

Country first, party second.

I think his general message that he'll try to communicate to the country in order to put pressure on the party, if and when there is a leadership election, is are we serious or not?

Are we really going to

ditch that idea of country, first party, second.

And I'd have to say, I talked about the whole sort of personal conversation thing.

And I think this is a weakness.

I think a lot of ministers say they don't really know him that well.

They don't really have kind of deeply personal conversations where he gets a sense of what they're thinking and all that stuff.

If I were him, I'd be on the phone to Andy Burnham.

And I'd be saying, look, Andy, you're a talented guy.

You've been a great mayor of Manchester.